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YCQM January 18, 2020

(WCAX)
Published: Jan. 18, 2020 at 4:24 PM EST
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>> Darren: AND GOOD MORNING,

EVERYONE.

I'M DARREN PERRON.

RIGHT NOW ON CHANNEL 3'S "YOU

CAN QUOTE ME," SENATOR PATRICK

LEAHY WENT TO WASHINGTON DURING

WATERGATE.

HE PLAYED A ROLE IN THE CLINTON

IMPEACHMENT AND NOW HIS THOUGHTS

ON THE PROCESS AND POLITICS

SURROUNDING THE TRUMP TRIAL.

WE SIT DOWN WITH VERMONT'S

SENIOR SENATOR.

>>> ALSO, EXPERT ANALYSIS ON THE

LATEST DEMOCRATIC DEBATE, THE

PRESIDENTIAL RACE, THE

IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, AND THE

SUDDEN TENSION BETWEEN BERNIE

SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN.

>>> PLUS, DAVID ZUCKERMAN MAKES

IT OFFICIAL.

THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WANTS TO

BE GOVERNOR.

WE ASK ABOUT HIS CHANCES AGAINST

INCUMBENT GOVERNOR PHIL SCOTT.

AND THAT'S WHERE WE BEGIN THIS

MORNING.

DAVID ZUCKERMAN SAYS HE WANTS TO

LEAD VERMONT.

OUR CAT VIGLIENZONI ASKED HIM

ABOUT HIS PRIORITIES AND HIS

CHANCES.

>> Cat: MONDAY, DAVID ZUCKERMAN

PUT RUMORS TO REST.

VERMONT'S LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR

ANNOUNCING HIS THROWING HIS HAT

IN THE RING FOR THE STATE'S TOP

POLITICAL OFFICE.

>> Zuckerman: THIS WAS NOT AN

EASY DECISION.

>> Cat: HE SAYS HE'S RUNNING ON

A PLATFORM FOCUSED ON EARNING A

LIVEABLE WAGE, FIGHTING CLIMATE

CHANGE, EXPANDING ACCESS TO

HEALTHCARE, BASKETBALL

AFFORDABLE HOUSING, EXPANDING

ACCESS TO SECONDARY EDUCATION

AND ASKING VERMONT'S WEALTHIEST

TO INVEST MORE IN THE STATE BY

PAYING MORE TAXES.

>> Zuckerman: THE PUBLIC WANTS

INVESTMENT IN THEIR FUTURE.

NOT MORE NICKEL AND DIMING, FEES

AND SMALL TAXING HERE AND THERE,

WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU

DON'T TALK ABOUT WHO CAN AFFORD

TO PAY.

>> Cat: HE OFFERED NO SPECIFICS

MONDAY ON WHAT THE DETAILS WOULD

BE, SAYING HE WOULD BE DOING

THAT LATER IN THE SPRING IN HIS

CAMPAIGN, BUT SAID IT WOULD BE

TEMPORARY FOR TWO TO FIVE YEARS,

SIMILAR TO WHAT WAS ENACTED

UNDER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR'S

RICHARD SNELLINGS'

ADMINISTRATION IN THE 1980s.

>> Zuckerman: I THINK WE CAN DO

THAT AGAIN.

WE CAN ASK OUR WEALTHIEST

VERMONTERS WHETHER THEY BELIEVE

WE SHOULD INVEST IN THE FUTURE.

>> Cat: HE SAYS HE'LL RUN AS A

DEMOCRAT BUT KEEP HIS

PROGRESSIVE LABEL ON A WRITE-IN

CAMPAIGN.

>> Zuckerman: I'VE RUN WITH BOTH

THE DEMOCRATIC AND PROGRESSIVE

LABEL NOW FOR EIGHT YEARS AND SO

FAR IT HASN'T REALLY HURT, SO I

GUESS IT HELPS.

>> Cat: THIS AS MONDAY MORNING,

HIS CHALLENGER FOR THE

DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION, FORMER

EDUCATION SECRETARY REBECCA

HOLCOMB RELEASED A LIST OF

ENDORSEMENTS FROM SOME TOP

DEMOCRATS.

SHE TOLD US LAST WEEK SHE

WELCOMES THE CHALLENGE.

>> I THINK IT'S GREAT.

IT GIVES US A WONDERFUL

OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A ROBUST

DEBATE ABOUT DEMOCRATIC IDEALS.

>> Cat: ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT

NAME RECOGNITION?

>> OH, I THINK I HAVE

RECOGNITION.

>> Cat: ZUCKERMAN SAYS IT WILL

BE UP TO VOTERS TO DECIDE WHO'S

BEST TO TAKE ON GOVERNOR PHIL

SCOTT IF THE GOVERNOR DECIDES TO

RUN AGAIN.

>> Zuckerman: NO DOUBT THIS IS A

TOUGH RACE.

WE HAVEN'T BEATEN AN INCUMBENT

GOVERNOR IN 60-ODD YEARS.

I THINK THERE'S A REAL ENERGY TO

WIN.

>> Darren: AND DAVID ZUCKERMAN

JOINS US NOW FROM THE MONTPELIER

BUREAUS ABOUT GOOD MORNING TO

NOW.

>> Zuckerman: GOOD MORNING,

THANK YOU.

>> Darren: CATALYSTED A LOT OF

THINGS YOU'D LIKE TO GET DONE,

LIVEABLE WAGE, CLIMATE CHANGE,

AFFORDABLE HOUSING, ACCESS TO

COLLEGE, BUT HOW CAN YOU

CONVINCE VERMONTERS YOU'LL

ACCOMPLISH THESE GOALS?

>> Zuckerman: CERTAINLY NOT ALL

OF THESE ISSUES WILL BE

ACCOMPLISHED ON DAY ONE.

ON THE OTHER HAND, VERMONTERS

HAVE COME TOGETHER TO INVEST IN

OUR FUTURE BEFORE AND I THINK WE

CAN DO IT AGAIN.

WE'VE GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO ASK

OUR WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS WOULD

THEY BE WILLING TO PAY A

MARGINAL SURCHARGE ON THEIR

INCOME TAXES TO PUT TOGETHER

ROBUST FUNDING TO INVEST IN OUR

FUTURE AS WE EXPAND BROADBAND TO

OUR RURAL AREAS, WEATHERIZE

THOUSANDS MORE HOMES AND PUT

MORE MONEY INTO WORKING

VERMONTERS POCKETS BY REDUCING

HEATING BILLS AND ENERGY BILLS,

CREATE A BETTER TRANSPORTATION

NETWORK SO FOLKS CAN GET OUT OF

THEIR CARS AND GET TO WORK AND

THEREFORE SAVE MEMBERSHIP TO

SPEND IN THE LOCAL ECONOMY.

THOSE DOLLARS STAY IN VERMONT

INSTEAD OF GOING INTO FUEL FOR

THEIR VEHICLES, 80% OF WHICH

GOES OUT OF STATE.

THAT MONEY IN VERMONT WILL HELP

VERMONT BUSINESSES.

ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO GROW

VERMONT'S ECONOMY TO ALSO MAKE

OTHER INVESTMENTS POSSIBLE,

WHETHER IT'S HIGHER EDUCATION,

WHETHER IT'S REFORMS.

FRANKLY, SOME DON'T EVEN NEED

MONEY FOR REFORMS TO OUR

EDUCATION SYSTEM, TO OUR

HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

SOME OF THOSE THINGS AREN'T

ABOUT COST.

I WENT TO THE GOVERNOR NOW

ALMOST THREE YEARS AND SAID TO

HIM WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO

WORK TOGETHER AND SHOW THIS

COUNTRY WHAT A REPUBLICAN AND A

NON-REPUBLICAN CAN DO TOGETHER

IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND IN OUR

GOVERNANCE IN WAY THAT THIS

COUNTRY BADLY NEEDS GIVEN WHAT'S

GOING ON IN WASHINGTON.

I SAID TO HIM, LOOK AT OUR HUMAN

SERVICES BUDGET, LOOK AT OUR

EDUCATION BUDGET, THEY'RE

CLEARLY OVERLAPPING IN SOME OF

THE SERVICES THEY'RE PROVIDING

SOME OF OUR CHALLENGED KIDS IN

THIS STATE.

WHY DON'T WE WORK TOGETHER, LOOK

AT THE FRONT LINES OF THOSE TWO

MASSIVE BUDGETS AND SAY WHERE

CAN WE FIND OPPORTUNITIES TO

REDUCE REDUNDANCIES A SAVE

MONEY.

FUNDING THESE KINDS OF IDEAS IS

PARTLY THROUGH A TEMPORARY

INVESTMENT IN VERMONT BY OUR

WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS AND PARTLY

THROUGH LOOKING DOWN AT THE

FRONT LINES FOR EFFICIENCIES IN

GOVERNMENT THAT AREN'T ABOUT

JUST CUTTING PROGRAMS, BUT

ACTUALLY AROUND TALKING TO OUR

FRONT LINE STATE EMPLOYEES,

STATE WORKERS, DESIGNATED AGENCY

FOLKS, TEACHERS, SOCIAL WORKERS,

AND SAY HOW CAN THIS SYSTEM WORK

BETTER, WHAT ASPECT OF THIS

DECADES-OLD SYSTEM CAN WE

UPGRADE TO MODERN TIMES AND

CREATE BETTER OUTCOMES.

>> Darren: SO GETTING BACK TO

THIS TAX ON THE RICHEST

VERMONTERS, IS IT FAIR TO CALL

THIS A WEALTH TAX?

>> Zuckerman: THAT'S NOT QUITE

ACCURATE BECAUSE TAXING WEALTH

MEANS WHAT ARE YOUR ASSETS WORTH

AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO TAX YOU

WITH RESPECT TO THOSE ASSETS,

WHETHER IT'S A LOT OF PROPERTY,

WHETHER IT'S STOCK.

THOSE ARE ALL ASSETS.

THAT'S WHAT WEALTH IS.

THIS WOULD STILL BE AN

INCOME-BASED TAX.

IF YOU ARE -- I DON'T HAVE AN

EXACT NUMBER, BUT IF YOU HAVE

HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS

OF INCOME EVERY YEAR AND VERMONT

WERE TO SAY ARE YOU READY, DO

YOU HAVE THE VALUES THAT

VERMONTERS HAVE TO INVEST IN OUR

ECONOMY FOR THE FUTURE TO THE

TUNE OF AN ADDITIONAL 5, 10, I'M

NOT SURE EXACTLY HOW MANY

THOUSANDS PER PERSON AT WHAT

RATE, BUT WE'RE TALKING THE

WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS, TO

AGGREGATE TOGETHER TO INVEST IN

OUR STATE AND OUR FUTURE AND OUR

CLIMATE, WHICH IS BOTH AN

ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, BUT ALSO A

MORAL IMPERATIVE.

WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO OR SOUTH.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE -- TO OUR

YOUTH.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE

TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF

RAISING REVENUE AND MANY FOLKS

IN THOSE CLASSES HAVE SAID

BEFORE, WE'RE WILLING TO STEP

UP, AND RIGHT NOW GIVEN THE

URGENCY OF OUR CLIMATE CRISIS,

THE SPORADIC WEATHER.

LET ME TELL YOU A STORY.

I WAS AT THE FARMERS MARKET LAST

WEEKEND AND A YOUNG WOMAN, 17

YEARS OLD, SAID TO ME I'M

THINKING I'M PROBABLY NOT GOING

TO HAVE CHILDREN IN MY LIFETIME.

THINK ABOUT ALL THAT THAT MEANS

WITH RESPECT TO OUR POPULATION,

IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT AS

JUST NUMBERS, BUT THINK ABOUT

WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF HOPE

AND VISION.

HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS STATE

HAVE HAD CHILDREN AND VALUE THE

MULTIGENERATIONS OF FAMILY AND

ABILITY TO TALK TO YOUR

GRANDPARENTS AND YOUR PARENTS

AND CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.

IMAGINE THAT JUST ENDING BECAUSE

YOUNG PEOPLE SAY I DON'T WANT TO

BRING YOUNG PEOPLE INTO THIS

WORLD FOR THE FUTURE IT'S GOING

TO HAVE.

THAT'S THE TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCE

THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN, AND

THE QUESTION IS, ARE THOSE WHO

ARE EARNING HUGE SUMS OF MONEY

AND WHO JUST RECEIVED A MASSIVE

TAX CUT UNDER THE TRUMP

ADMINISTRATION, HUNDREDS OF

MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, TO SAY,

OKAY, KEEP SOME OF THAT, SEND IT

DOWN TO WALL STREET, BUT ALSO

ARE YOU WILLING TO INVEST SOME

OF THAT IN VERMONT'S ECONOMIC

CLIMATE FUTURE?

I THINK MANY WILL SAY YES.

>> Darren: BUT YOU'RE NOT

PREPARED TO SAY WHO THAT IS AT

THIS POINT, WHAT SALARY WOULD

TRANSLATE INTO THIS PROPOSED

TAX?

>> Zuckerman: WELL, I WILL SAY

SOME STATISTICS FOR YOU.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S WHERE THE

CUTOFF IS, BUT THE WEALTHIEST

10% OF VERMONTERS, 10% OF THE

HOUSEHOLDS MAKE $150,000 OR

MORE.

I THINK THAT NUMBER IS PROBABLY

TOO LOW IN TERMS OF WHERE THE

CUTOFF WOULD BE.

I THINK IT HAS TO BE UP OVER

200, $250,000, BUT THOSE

VERMONTERS RECEIVED ABOUT A

$300 MILLION ANNUAL TAX CUT

UNDER THE TRUMP TAX PLAN, SO IF

WE GO TO A HIGHER NUMBER, THE

NUMBER IS SMALLER AND I'M NOT

TALKING ABOUT ASKING THEM TO PUT

ALL OF THAT TOWARDS VERMONT'S

ECONOMIC FUTURE, BUT IF SOME

PORTION OF $200 MILLION FROM THE

WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS' TAX CUTS

UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION

WENT INTO A THREE- TO FIVE-YEAR

VERMONT CLIMATE AND ECONOMY

INVESTMENT PLAN, THAT WOULD PAY

HUGE DIVIDENDS FOR VERMONT.

IT WOULD ALLOW VERMONT TO STAY

WHAT IT IS AND EVEN GROW TO BE A

BETTER STATE SO THAT THOSE FOLKS

THAT DO LIVE HERE WITH THOSE

RESOURCES ALSO WILL SEE THE

COMMUNITIES AROUND THEM

THROUGHOUT OUR WORLD SURVIVE AND

THRIVE.

>> Darren: STICKING WITH THE

MONEY ISSUE, A LOT OF VERMONTERS

ARGUE THAT VERMONT'S TOO

EXPENSIVE ALREADY.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO PEOPLE WHO

SAY THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE

HERE?

>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK

THAT'S VERY ACCURATE FOR WORKING

CLASS VERMONTERS, IT IS TOO

EXPENSIVE AND THE GOVERNOR HAS

DONE A GREAT JOB OF TALKING

ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.

WHERE THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN

SOMEWHAT NOT FULLY PRESENTED IS

THAT THAT AFFORDABILITY ISSUE IS

ABOUT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.

THE WEALTHIEST IN THE STATE CAN

VERY MUCH AFFORD TO LIVE HERE,

AND IN FACT, WE'VE SEEN AN

INFLUX OF THE WEALTHIEST CLASSES

OF PEOPLE IN VERMONT, NOT AN

OUTFLOW.

THE OUTFLOW IS WORKING CLASS

STRUGGLING VERMONTERS AND THAT'S

THE REASON I'M ASKING THE

WEALTHIEST WILL WOULD YOU WORK

TO MAKE STATE MORE AFFORDABLE,

ARE YOU WILLING TO IN

WEATHERIZING OUR HOMES, IN WHICH

WE HAVE A LOT OF OLD HOUSING

STOCK THAT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE

ARE LIVING IN, PAY HUGE HEATING

BILLS.

THAT MAKES VERMONT MORE

AFFORDABLE.

S ARE YOU WILLING TO ITS VEST IN

OUR STATE WITH A STRONGER

ECONOMY SO INSTEAD OF RAISING

FISHING LICENSES, DRIVER'S

LICENSES, REGISTRATION FEES,

CAMP PERMIT FEES.

WHENEVER WE GET INTO THE

RHETORIC OF NO NEW TAXES, IT'S

IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT

BILLS COME DUE AND THEN FOLKS

SAY NO INCOME TAX ON THE

WEALTHIEST AND NO BROAD-BASED

TAX, THAT MEANS WORKING

VERMONTERS GET HIT IN THE

POCKETBOOK WITH FEES.

I THINK THAT WILL RESONATE WITH

VERMONTERS.

THERE'S A LOT OF VERMONTERS

MAKING 20, 30, 60, $80,000 A

YEAR WHO ARE STRUGGLING TO GET

BY AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WHEN

WE PUT IN NEW INITIATIVES,

THEY'RE NOT THE ONES WHO ARE

ASKED TO PAY FOR IT YET AGAIN

AND AGAIN.

>> Darren: YOU'VE BEEN A LONG

TIME PROPONENT OF A LEGAL MARKET

FOR MARIJUANA.

WILL IT PASS THIS YEAR, YOU

THINK, AND IF SO, WHAT DO YOU

THINK SHOULD BE DONE WITH THAT

REVENUE?

>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK IT'S

INTERESTING.

THERE'S AN INDICATOR THAT MAYBE

IT WILL GET THE SUPPORT OF THE

GOVERNOR THIS YEAR BECAUSE I

BELIEVE HIS FUNDING SOURCE FOR

HIS UNIVERSAL AFTER-SCHOOL

PROGRAMS THAT HE WANTS TO

IMPLEMENT OVER THE NEXT FIVE

YEARS MAY BE PREDICATED ON

REVENUES FROM BRINGING OUR

CANNABIS INDUSTRY THAT'S FULLY

ALIVE AND WELL IN VERMONT ABOVE

BOARD.

AS YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN

ADVOCATING FOR CHANGING THOSE

LAWS FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

I THINK FROM A SAFETY

PERSPECTIVE, A CLEANLINESS OF

THE PRODUCT, PULLING IT OUT OF

THE SHADOWS AND MAKING IT

LESS -- NOT ELIMINATE, BUT LESS

EASY TO GET FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE

HAS BEEN THE RIGHT WAY TO GO TO

A LONG TIME.

WE'VE MISSED SOME OF THE EARLY

OPPORTUNITY THAT THAT WOULD HAVE

GENERATED IN TERMS OF TOURISM

AND REVENUES, BUT I DO THINK

REVENUES WILL COME IN FROM THAT.

I ALSO THINK THAT IT WILL BE A

GREAT RURAL ECONOMY AND RURAL

POPULATION BOOSTER BECAUSE,

REALLY, THE BEST MODEL WILL HAVE

LOTS OF SMALL GROWER FACILITIES

AND FIELDS ALL AROUND THE STATE,

ALLOWING PEOPLE TO LIVE AND WORK

IN THEIR COMMUNITIES WITH A

DECENT INCOME RATHER THAN THE

CONCENTRATION WE SEE IN VERMONT,

WHICH BY THE WAY, AGAIN, IN

TERMS OF FACTS AND INFORMATION,

IS A LITTLE BIT MISREPRESENTED

IN THAT RURAL AREAS ACROSS THE

COUNTRY, DOESN'T MATTER HOW RED,

WHETHER IT'S NEBRASKA OR

WYOMING, OR BLUE, VERMONT OR

CALIFORNIA, RURAL AREAS ARE

DEPOPULATING.

IN FACT, VERMONT, FOR ALL OUR

STRUGGLES AND TROUBLES, IS

ACTUALLY DEPOPULATING IN RURAL

AREAS MORE SLOWLY THAN MANY

STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND

SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT OUR

STRENGTHS ARE.

WE HAVE PROXIMITY TO THE BOSTON

AND CONNECTICUT AND NEW YORK

MARKETS THAT RURAL NEBRASKA AND

WYOMING JUST DO NOT HAVE.

SO WE ACTUALLY, THROUGH

EXPANDING BROADBAND, ALLOWING A

LEGAL REGULATED CANNABIS SYSTEM

THAT WILL NOT ONLY REPOPULATE

AND CREATE JOBS IN OUR RURAL

AREAS, BUT WILL GENERATE INCOME

FOR THE STATE THAT WE CAN INVEST

IN OTHER ASPECTS LIKE BROADBAND

THAT WILL ALSO REPOPULATE OUR

RURAL AREAS AND WILL FRANKLY

ATTRACT MORE YOUNG PEOPLE AND

YOUNG FAMILIES WHEN WE HAVE THE

MODERN TOOLS OF THE MODERN

ECONOMY.

>> Darren: LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR

POTENTIAL OPPONENT.

WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT PHIL

SCOTT HASN'T ANNOUNCED IF HE'S

RUNNING YET, BUT IT'S LIKELY

HE'S ALREADY STARTED

FUNDRAISING.

HE'S POPULAR, HE'S AN INCUMBENT,

HE HAS HIGH APPROVAL RATINGS,

AND INCUMBENTS ARE VERY HARD TO

BEAT IN VERMONT.

THEY RARELY LOSE.

HOW DO YOU WIN?

>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK IF

YOU REALLY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS

FROM THE LAST FEW YEARS, THE

NUMBERS ARE PRETTY EQUAL FOR THE

GOVERNOR AND I.

THERE'S NO DOUBT WE HAVE A

NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT VOTED FOR

BOTH OF US.

OTHERWISE, WE WOULD NOT BE THE

TWO PEOPLE IN THE POSITIONS

WE'RE IN.

I BELIEVE I'VE GOT PRETTY GOOD

RAPPORT WITH PEOPLE ALL ACROSS

THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AND THE

STATE FOR THE WORK I'VE DONE ON

ISSUES RANGING FROM MARRIAGE

EQUALITY TO RAISING THE MINIMUM

WAGE, GMO, AFFORDABLE

HEALTHCARE.

I'VE WORKED WITH PEOPLE ALL OVER

THE STATE NOW FOR DECADES.

I BELIEVE A LOT OF VERMONTERS

LOOK AT WHO THE PEOPLE ARE AND

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH

CHOICE BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND

I.

THERE'S NO DOUBT.

I THINK IT'S BEEN ALMOST 60

YEARS SINCE AN INCUMBENT WAS

BEATEN IN VERMONT, BUT I DO

BELIEVE THE TYPE IS RIGHT.

THE INTEREST IN MORE ACTION THAN

WORDS IS GOING TO GENERATE A LOT

OF PEOPLE COMING OUT TO THE

POLLS.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A HIGH

TURNOUT YEAR.

THERE ARE A LOT OF MAJOR ISSUES

FOR A LOT OF VERMONTERS, BUT THE

YOUNG FOLKS PLEADING FOR CLIMATE

CRISIS LEGISLATION AND HAVE NOT

SEEN THAT OTHER THAN WORDS

PRIMARILY FOR THE LAST THREE

YEARS AROUND THIS ISSUE ARE

GOING TO COME OUT AND THEY'RE

NOT EXCITED ABOUT SOMEONE WHO

HAD A PANEL THAT'S CREATED 54

IDEAS, OF WHICH ONLY THREE HAVE

BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

SO PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT

OUR FUTURE AND REAL ACTION, I

HOPE TO INSPIRE THEM TO VOTE AND

TO VOTE FOR ME, AND WE'LL SEE

WHERE THE CHIPS FALL IN

NOVEMBER, BUT I THINK I'VE GOT A

REAL SHOT.

THERE WAS EVEN ANALYSIS OUT OF

VIRGINIA THAT JUST CHANGED WITH

MY ANNOUNCEMENT THAT IT WAS

LIKELY A REPUBLICAN ELECTION

VICTORY TO NOW LEAN REPUBLICAN.

SO CLEARLY SOMEONE OUT THERE

THINKS I HAVE A SHOT TO MAKE

THIS A REAL RACE AND SO DO I.

>> Darren: YOU HAVE TO GET

THROUGH THE PRIMARY FIRST, SO

LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR PRIMARY

CHALLENGER, FORMER EDUCATION

SECRETARY REBECCA HOLCOMB.

SHE ANNOUNCED THIS SUMMER.

OUTLINE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN

THE TWO OF YOU.

>> Zuckerman: I'M GOING TO LET

VOTERS OUTLINE THE DIFFERENCES.

CERTAINLY I HAVE A LOT OF

EXPERIENCE IN EFFECTIVELY

GETTING THINGS DONE AND MOVED IN

VERMONT.

I'VE WORKED WITH VERMONTERS

ACROSS ALL POLITICAL STRIPES TO

BRING UP IDEAS AND TALK ABOUT

ISSUES AND TO LISTEN AND ADJUST

THOSE ISSUES TO THEY FIT BETTER

WITH THE BROAD SPECTRUM OF

VERMONTERS' INTERESTS.

MY OPPONENT IS EXTRAORDINARY

INTELLIGENT, HARD WORKING, HAS

DONE A LOT FOR THIS STATE AS

WELL, SO I KNOW SHE'S GOING TO

RUN A GREAT CAMPAIGN AND I THINK

THE WORK I'VE DONE OVER THESE

YEARS CLEARLY, THREE YEARS AGO,

THE PRIMARY I WAS IN WAS ROBUST,

IT WAS POSITIVE.

IT WAS NOT NEGATIVE.

I SUSPECT THAT WILL BE THE SAME

HERE.

I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THAT, AND

WE'LL LET VOTERS DECIDE.

SO YES, THERE ARE TWO RACES TO

WIN AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT I CAN

WIN THOSE AND I WILL WORK HARD

TO DO SO.

>> Darren: DAVID ZUCKERMAN,

THANK YOU.

>> Zuckerman: THANK YOU, DARREN.

I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> Darren: STILL AHEAD,

ONE-ON-ONE WITH SENATOR PATRICK

LEAHY.

HIS TAKE ON THE TRUMP

IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AND THE

HANDSHAKE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

WHAT THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN

BERNIE SANDERS AND ELIZABETH

WARREN COULD MEAN FOR BOTH OF

THEIR CAMPAIGNS.

EXPERT ANALYSIS NEXT.

>> Darren: CAMPAIGN 2020, NOW

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS AND

ELIZABETH WARREN STILL NOT

TALKING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF

THEIR POST-DEBATE DEBATE.

THE TWO TANGLED ON STAGE OVER A

PRIVATE CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE

TWO OF THEM THAT TOOK PLACE TWO

YEARS AGO.

WARREN SAYS SANDERS TOLD HER IN

2018 THAT A WOMAN COULD NOT WIN

THE PRESIDENCY.

ASKED ABOUT IT ON STAGE DURING

TUESDAY'S DEBATE IN IOWA,

SANDERS SAID THAT'S NOT TRUE.

AND WE STILL HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY

CONTEXT REGARDING THAT ALLEGED

CONVERSATION.

ONCE THE DEBATE ENDED, WARREN

CHALLENGED HIM AND DIDN'T SHAKE

SANDERS' HAND.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> I THINK YOU CALLED ME A LIAR

ON NAITONAL TV.

>> WHAT?

>> I THINK YOU CALLED ME A LIAR

ON NATIONAL TV.

>> LET'S NOT DO IT RIGHT NOW.

YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT

DISCUSSION, LET'S HAVE THAT

DISCUSSION.

YOU CALLED ME --

>> I DON'T WANT TO GET IN THE

MIDDLE, I WANT TO SAY HI.

>> Darren: SANDERS TOLD

REPORTERS THAT HE AND WARREN

HAVE NOT SPOKEN SINCE.

>> HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO SENATOR

WARREN SINCE THE DEBATE?

HAVE YOU RESOLVED ANYTHING

THERE?

>> NO, WE HAVEN'T.

>> Darren: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN

FOR THEIR CAMPAIGNS?

MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE POLITICAL

SCIENTIST MATT DICKINSON IS HERE

TO TALK ABOUT THAT, THE MOST

RECENT DEBATE AND HOW THAT COULD

MAKE A DIFFERENCE THIS CAMPAIGN

SEASON.

>> Dickinson: GOOD MORNING.

>> Darren: RIGHT OFF THE BAT,

WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT

EXCHANGE?

>> Dickinson: NOBODY KNOWS WHAT

WAS SPOKEN.

BOTH SIDES THINK THEY'RE

HONESTLY REMEMBERING IT

CORRECTLY, BUT IN TERMS OF

POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS, WARREN

CAME OUT THE BEST BECAUSE SHE

USED IT TO MAKE A BROADER POINT

ABOUT GENDER AND THE FAILURE TO

ELECT A WOMAN CANDIDATE, AND

REMEMBER, THIS IS A SENSITIVE

POINT FOR THE SANDERS CAMPAIGN.

THERE'S SOME ALLEGATIONS THAT HE

DID NOT COME OUT STRONGLY IN

BEHALF OF HILLARY CLINTON IN

2016.

THERE'S ALLEGATIONS OF SEXISM

WITHIN HIS PERSONAL STAFF, SO

SHE WAS ABLE TO DO THIS BROADER

POINT.

>> Darren: DOES THIS HURT OR

HELP EITHER CAMPAIGN OR DOES IT

HELP SOMEBODY ELSE?

>> Dickinson: WE SHOULD BE CLEAR

HERE.

IF IT WASN'T THIS INCIDENT, IT

WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING ELSE.

YOU HAVE TWOS FOR LISTS VYING

FOR THE -- TWO POPULISTS VYING

FOR THE SAME CONSTITUENCY, THEY

CAN'T BOTH WIN THE NOMINATION.

I THINK BOTH ARE WORRIED THAT

RATHER THAN CONSOLIDATING

SUPPORT BEHIND ONE OF THEM,

THEY'RE GOING TO SPLIT THE

SUPPORT AND OPEN THE DOORS FOR A

CENTRIST LIKE BIDEN.

>> Darren: WE'VE HEARD FROM A

COUPLE OF FORMER VERMONT

GOVERNORS, PETER SHUMLIN SAYING

BERNIE PLAYS DIRTY POLITICS

SOMETIMES, ALLEGATIONS THAT HIS

CAMPAIGN HANDED OUT PAMPHLETS

SAYING THAT WARREN ONLY APPEARS

FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE AND FORMER

GOVERNOR MADELEINE CUNIN WHO

TOOK ISSUE WITH BERNIE SANDERS

AND SAID BASICALLY SHE THINKS

ELIZABETH WARREN IS TELLING THE

TRUTH.

DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

>> Dickinson: I THINK IT GIVES

YOU AN IDEA OF HOW ONE SIDE IS

PLAYING THIS AND IF YOU GO TO

SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE THE OPINIONS

ARE MUCH STRONGER, YOU CAN SEE

DESPITE THE EFFORTS OF THE

CANDIDATES TO TRY TO MOVE BEYOND

THIS, PARTS OF THE CONSTITUENCY

ARE NOT GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN

AND AGAIN IT GETS TO THIS

BROADER POINT.

THERE ARE DEEP DIFFERENCES IN

THE PROGRESSIVE COALITION

REGARDING WHICH CANDIDATE IS THE

BEST STANDARD BEARER GOING

FORWARD, AND IN MANY RESPECTS,

THIS IS JUST THE TIP OF THE

ICEBERG.

>> Darren: LET'S MOVE ON TO THE

ACTUAL DEBATE.

ANY SURPRISES?

I EXPECTED EVERYBODY TO COME OUT

SWINGING, BUT ASIDE FROM THIS

LITTLE THING, THEY DIDN'T.

>> Dickinson: I HAD THE SAME

EXPECTATION AS YOU DID, DARREN,

AND I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM

THAT WE MISSED HERE, IN IOWA, IF

YOU DON'T GET 15% OF THE

SUPPORT, YOUR SUPPORT GOES TO

SOMEBODY ELSE AND I THINK A LOT

OF CANDIDATES LOOKING FORWARD TO

IOWA DIDN'T WANT TO IN SOME

SENSE TURN OFF POTENTIAL SUPPORT

FROM OTHER CANDIDATES WHO MIGHT

NOT MAKE THAT THRESHOLD.

IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, ATTACKING

THE OTHER PEOPLE, I THOUGHT

KOBUCHAR TOOK THE GLOVES OFF

AMONG ALL OF THEM, BUT IT'S

UNDERSTANDABLE WHY.

SHE'S THE ONE NOT MAKING THAT

15% THRESHOLD RIGHT NOW, SO SHE

IMPRESSED ME ONLY IN THE SENSE

THAT SHE SEEMED TO BE ON THE

OFFENSIVE THAT WHOLE TIME, MADE

THE BEST CASE FOR WHY HER

CANDIDACY IS THE ONE MOST LIKELY

TO BEAT TRUMP.

>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP WON

IN IOWA IN 2016 AND A LOT OF

FOLKS ARE STILL UNDECIDED.

POLLS SHOW THAT.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THAT AND DO

YOU THINK A DEMOCRAT STANDS A

CHANCE?

>> Dickinson: A DEMOCRAT

CERTAINLY STANDS A CHANCE.

TRUMP AS AN INCUMBENT HAS A LOT

OF ADVANTAGES, BUT HE'S NOT THE

MOST POPULAR INCUMBENT WE'VE

HAD.

WHAT THIS POINTS TO IS THIS IS A

WIDE OPEN FIELD FOR THE

DEMOCRATS AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE

SEEN PEOPLE LIKE BLOOK BERG AND

DUVAL PATRICK COME IN QUITE LATE

BECAUSE SUPPORT HASN'T

CONSOLIDATED BEHIND ANY OF THE

OTHER OPPONENTS AND THEY'RE

HOPING THEY'LL CATCH FIRE.

>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS

CLAIMING THAT THIS LITTLE TIFF

AND ALSO THE TIMING OF THE

IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS FOR THE

DEMOCRATS TO TAKE AIM AT BERNIE

SANDERS AND RIGGING THE

ELECTION, AS HE PUTS IT AGAIN?

>> Dickinson: I THINK THE

DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT WOULD

LIKE ANYBODY BUT BERNIE TO WIN

THIS NOMINATION AND THEY'RE

PROBABLY RIGHT, BUT KEEP IN MIND

FROM THE DEMOCRATS' PERSPECTIVE,

HE'S NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY EXCEPT FOR

EVERY FOUR YEARS WHEN HE'S

RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

I WOULD NOT GO SO FAR TO ARGUE

AS THEY'VE RIGGED THE TIMING OF

THE IMPEACHMENT.

THERE'S A LOT MORE DRIVING THIS

THAN CONSIDERATION FOR BERNIE'S

CAMPAIGN.

>> Darren: COMING UP NEXT,

VERMONT SENATOR PATRICK LEAHY

HELPED SET THE TABLE FOR THE

IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT

CLINTON.

NEXT WE SIT DOWN WITH THE

SENATOR TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST

THE TWO TRIES AND FIND OUT WHAT

HE EXPECTS THIS TIME AROUND.

>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP'S

IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS SET TO

BEGIN IN THE U.S. SENATE.

SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN

ROBERTS TOOK THE OATH TO FREE

SIDE OVER THE TRIAL.

HE THEN SWORE IN ALL 100 U.S.

SENATORS WHO WILL BE ACTING AS

JURORS IN THE PRESIDENT'S TRIAL.

THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME

COURT WAS ESCORTED INTO THE

SENATE BY FOUR SENATORS,

INCLUDING VERMONT SENATOR

PATRICK LEAHY, AND TAKE A LOOK

AT THIS.

IT'S A PHOTO FROM 1999 WHEN

LEAHY WAS ON THE ESCORT

COMMITTEE DURING THE IMPEACHMENT

TRIAL OF PRESIDENT CLINTON.

LEAHY SAT DOWN WITH OUR

WASHINGTON BUREAU REPORTER KYLE

MIDURA TO TALK ABOUT

SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES

BETWEEN THE CASES.

>> Reporter: THANK YOU AS ALWAYS

FOR YOUR TIME.

THE THIRD TIME IN OUR HISTORY

THE SENATE IS LOOKING AT AN

IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

YOU'RE A FORMER PROSECUTOR, LONG

TIME POLITICIAN.

IF YOU BE TRULY IMPARTIAL IN THE

TRIAL GIVE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE

YOUR ISSUES WITH THE PRESIDENT?

>> Leahy: I WEIGH VERY STRONGLY

MY OATH AS A SENATOR.

I'LL LISTEN TO IT ALL AND MAKE

UP MY MIND AT THE END, BUT NO,

I'LL LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE AND

I WANT TO HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.

I CAN THINK OF OTHER CHARGES

THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT,

BUT I'LL LISTEN TO WHAT IS

THERE.

WHAT I WORRY ABOUT ARE SENATORS

WHO ARE SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO

CONSULT WITH THE WHITE HOUSE AND

WITH THE PRESIDENT, THEY'LL ONLY

DO WHAT HE TELLS THEM TO DO.

THAT'S WRONG.

>> Reporter: YOU AND SENATOR

McCONNELL PLAYED A BIG PART IN

SETTING THE RULES IN 1998 FOR

THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

AT THAT TIME, YOU WERE PUSHING

NOT TO HEAR FROM WITNESSES.

SENATOR McCONNELL ON THE OTHER

END, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A LITTLE

BIT OF A FLIP-FLOP, THE

CIRCUMSTANCES ARE CERTAINLY

DIFFERENT.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE PLAY

OUT THIS TIME AND WHY ARE THE

CIRCUMSTANCES --

>> Leahy: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT

I -- I TAKE ISSUE WITH A COUPLE

POINTS IN THAT.

WE DID HAVE WITNESSES, A LOT OF

WITNESSES IN THE CLINTON

IMPEACHMENT.

EVERYBODY HAD TESTIFIED UNDER

OATH AT GREAT LENGTH, INCLUDING

PRESIDENT CLINTON.

HERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS

REFUSED TO TESTIFY AND HE'S

ORDERED NINE KEY PEOPLE NOT TO

TESTIFY.

SO WE HAD ALL THAT GOING IN, BUT

WE STILL TOOK DEPOSITIONS THAT

WE ASKED ALL THE QUESTIONS.

WE CAN DO THAT AGAIN.

THE PROBLEM IS, UNLIKE IN THE

CLINTON ONE, WE DON'T HAVE THE

TESTIMONY OF ALL THESE PEOPLE

UNDER OATH, INCLUDING THE

PRESIDENT.

>> Reporter: DID THE HOUSE

HAMSTRING THE SENATE EFFORTS BY

NOT WAITING OUT THE COURTS TO

FORCE SOMEONE LIKE AMBASSADOR

BOLTON TO TESTIFY?

>> Leahy: THAT HAS TO BE A HOUSE

DECISION.

I'M NOT A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE.

I'M NOT TRYING TO DODGE THE

QUESTION.

I'VE TRIED VERY CAREFULLY NOT TO

SUGGEST WHAT THEY SHOULD OR

SHOULD NOT DO.

THERE'S NO REASON WHY JOHN

BOLTON AND THESE OTHERS THAT THE

PRESIDENT REFUSED TO ALLOW TO

TESTIFY, THERE'S NO REASON WHY

THEY COULDN'T BE CALLED TO

TESTIFY IN THE SENATE.

>> Reporter: YOU CAME INTO

OFFICE, SURPRISED MANY IN

VERMONT, IN NO SMALL PART

BECAUSE OF BLOWBACK FROM

PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON.

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS PROCESS

IMPACTING WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN

2020, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES

TO SENATOR SANDERS WHO MIGHT BE

STRUCK HERE IN A TRIAL INSTEAD

OF OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN

IOWA?

>> Leahy: IT'S SUCH A DIFFERENT

TIME THAN 1974.

REMEMBER EVERY MAJOR NEWS

ORGANIZATION, INCLUDING YOURS,

HAD DECLARED DEFINITIVELY THAT I

WOULD NOT GET ELECTED.

WE HAD OUR THEN INFLUENTIAL

NEWSPAPER, A STRONG SUPPORTER OF

RICHARD NIXON, THAT I WOULD NOT

GET ELECTED.

THERE WAS STRONG SUPPORT FOR THE

VIETNAM WAR IN VERMONT.

THE MAJORITY SUPPORTED IT.

>> Reporter: SIR, YOU PENNED A

RECENT OP-ED SUGGESTING IT'S A

SHAME THAT WE'VE SEEN DOCUMENTS

THAT WERE REQUESTED BY THE HOUSE

AND WERE NOT RELEASED BY THE

WHITE HOUSE COME FORWARD THROUGH

THE FOIA PROCESS.

ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT

BEING A CHALLENGE IN THE SENATE

PROCESS AS WELL?

>> Leahy: I WORRY VERY MUCH THAT

SENATOR McCONNELL IS

COORDINATING EVERYTHING WITH THE

WHITE HOUSE.

I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT DONE BEFORE

IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS DID NOT DO

THAT WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON WHEN

HE WAS UP FOR IMPEACHMENT.

THESE DOCUMENTS, THEY SHOW WHAT

WAS INVOLVED WITH UKRAINE, BUT

WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A FOIA

PROCESS TO DO IT WHEN IT WAS

REQUESTED BY THE HOUSE.

>> Reporter: SENATOR, THANK YOU

AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Leahy: THANK YOU.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AND HAPPY

NEW YEAR.

>> Darren: WE HAVE MORE NEWS

STRAIGHT AHEAD.

HAVE A GREAT DAY.

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