YCQM January 18, 2020

BURLINGTON, Vt. >> Darren: AND GOOD MORNING,
EVERYONE.
I'M DARREN PERRON.
RIGHT NOW ON CHANNEL 3'S "YOU
CAN QUOTE ME," SENATOR PATRICK
LEAHY WENT TO WASHINGTON DURING
WATERGATE.
HE PLAYED A ROLE IN THE CLINTON
IMPEACHMENT AND NOW HIS THOUGHTS
ON THE PROCESS AND POLITICS
SURROUNDING THE TRUMP TRIAL.
WE SIT DOWN WITH VERMONT'S
SENIOR SENATOR.
>>> ALSO, EXPERT ANALYSIS ON THE
LATEST DEMOCRATIC DEBATE, THE
PRESIDENTIAL RACE, THE
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, AND THE
SUDDEN TENSION BETWEEN BERNIE
SANDERS AND ELIZABETH WARREN.
>>> PLUS, DAVID ZUCKERMAN MAKES
IT OFFICIAL.
THE LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR WANTS TO
BE GOVERNOR.
WE ASK ABOUT HIS CHANCES AGAINST
INCUMBENT GOVERNOR PHIL SCOTT.
AND THAT'S WHERE WE BEGIN THIS
MORNING.
DAVID ZUCKERMAN SAYS HE WANTS TO
LEAD VERMONT.
OUR CAT VIGLIENZONI ASKED HIM
ABOUT HIS PRIORITIES AND HIS
CHANCES.
>> Cat: MONDAY, DAVID ZUCKERMAN
PUT RUMORS TO REST.
VERMONT'S LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR
ANNOUNCING HIS THROWING HIS HAT
IN THE RING FOR THE STATE'S TOP
POLITICAL OFFICE.
>> Zuckerman: THIS WAS NOT AN
EASY DECISION.
>> Cat: HE SAYS HE'S RUNNING ON
A PLATFORM FOCUSED ON EARNING A
LIVEABLE WAGE, FIGHTING CLIMATE
CHANGE, EXPANDING ACCESS TO
HEALTHCARE, BASKETBALL
AFFORDABLE HOUSING, EXPANDING
ACCESS TO SECONDARY EDUCATION
AND ASKING VERMONT'S WEALTHIEST
TO INVEST MORE IN THE STATE BY
PAYING MORE TAXES.
>> Zuckerman: THE PUBLIC WANTS
INVESTMENT IN THEIR FUTURE.
NOT MORE NICKEL AND DIMING, FEES
AND SMALL TAXING HERE AND THERE,
WHICH IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU
DON'T TALK ABOUT WHO CAN AFFORD
TO PAY.
>> Cat: HE OFFERED NO SPECIFICS
MONDAY ON WHAT THE DETAILS WOULD
BE, SAYING HE WOULD BE DOING
THAT LATER IN THE SPRING IN HIS
CAMPAIGN, BUT SAID IT WOULD BE
TEMPORARY FOR TWO TO FIVE YEARS,
SIMILAR TO WHAT WAS ENACTED
UNDER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR'S
RICHARD SNELLINGS'
ADMINISTRATION IN THE 1980s.
>> Zuckerman: I THINK WE CAN DO
THAT AGAIN.
WE CAN ASK OUR WEALTHIEST
VERMONTERS WHETHER THEY BELIEVE
WE SHOULD INVEST IN THE FUTURE.
>> Cat: HE SAYS HE'LL RUN AS A
DEMOCRAT BUT KEEP HIS
PROGRESSIVE LABEL ON A WRITE-IN
CAMPAIGN.
>> Zuckerman: I'VE RUN WITH BOTH
THE DEMOCRATIC AND PROGRESSIVE
LABEL NOW FOR EIGHT YEARS AND SO
FAR IT HASN'T REALLY HURT, SO I
GUESS IT HELPS.
>> Cat: THIS AS MONDAY MORNING,
HIS CHALLENGER FOR THE
DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION, FORMER
EDUCATION SECRETARY REBECCA
HOLCOMB RELEASED A LIST OF
ENDORSEMENTS FROM SOME TOP
DEMOCRATS.
SHE TOLD US LAST WEEK SHE
WELCOMES THE CHALLENGE.
>> I THINK IT'S GREAT.
IT GIVES US A WONDERFUL
OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE A ROBUST
DEBATE ABOUT DEMOCRATIC IDEALS.
>> Cat: ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT
NAME RECOGNITION?
>> OH, I THINK I HAVE
RECOGNITION.
>> Cat: ZUCKERMAN SAYS IT WILL
BE UP TO VOTERS TO DECIDE WHO'S
BEST TO TAKE ON GOVERNOR PHIL
SCOTT IF THE GOVERNOR DECIDES TO
RUN AGAIN.
>> Zuckerman: NO DOUBT THIS IS A
TOUGH RACE.
WE HAVEN'T BEATEN AN INCUMBENT
GOVERNOR IN 60-ODD YEARS.
I THINK THERE'S A REAL ENERGY TO
WIN.
>> Darren: AND DAVID ZUCKERMAN
JOINS US NOW FROM THE MONTPELIER
BUREAUS ABOUT GOOD MORNING TO
NOW.
>> Zuckerman: GOOD MORNING,
THANK YOU.
>> Darren: CATALYSTED A LOT OF
THINGS YOU'D LIKE TO GET DONE,
LIVEABLE WAGE, CLIMATE CHANGE,
AFFORDABLE HOUSING, ACCESS TO
COLLEGE, BUT HOW CAN YOU
CONVINCE VERMONTERS YOU'LL
ACCOMPLISH THESE GOALS?
>> Zuckerman: CERTAINLY NOT ALL
OF THESE ISSUES WILL BE
ACCOMPLISHED ON DAY ONE.
ON THE OTHER HAND, VERMONTERS
HAVE COME TOGETHER TO INVEST IN
OUR FUTURE BEFORE AND I THINK WE
CAN DO IT AGAIN.
WE'VE GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO ASK
OUR WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS WOULD
THEY BE WILLING TO PAY A
MARGINAL SURCHARGE ON THEIR
INCOME TAXES TO PUT TOGETHER
ROBUST FUNDING TO INVEST IN OUR
FUTURE AS WE EXPAND BROADBAND TO
OUR RURAL AREAS, WEATHERIZE
THOUSANDS MORE HOMES AND PUT
MORE MONEY INTO WORKING
VERMONTERS POCKETS BY REDUCING
HEATING BILLS AND ENERGY BILLS,
CREATE A BETTER TRANSPORTATION
NETWORK SO FOLKS CAN GET OUT OF
THEIR CARS AND GET TO WORK AND
THEREFORE SAVE MEMBERSHIP TO
SPEND IN THE LOCAL ECONOMY.
THOSE DOLLARS STAY IN VERMONT
INSTEAD OF GOING INTO FUEL FOR
THEIR VEHICLES, 80% OF WHICH
GOES OUT OF STATE.
THAT MONEY IN VERMONT WILL HELP
VERMONT BUSINESSES.
ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO GROW
VERMONT'S ECONOMY TO ALSO MAKE
OTHER INVESTMENTS POSSIBLE,
WHETHER IT'S HIGHER EDUCATION,
WHETHER IT'S REFORMS.
FRANKLY, SOME DON'T EVEN NEED
MONEY FOR REFORMS TO OUR
EDUCATION SYSTEM, TO OUR
HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.
SOME OF THOSE THINGS AREN'T
ABOUT COST.
I WENT TO THE GOVERNOR NOW
ALMOST THREE YEARS AND SAID TO
HIM WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
WORK TOGETHER AND SHOW THIS
COUNTRY WHAT A REPUBLICAN AND A
NON-REPUBLICAN CAN DO TOGETHER
IN OUR DEMOCRACY AND IN OUR
GOVERNANCE IN WAY THAT THIS
COUNTRY BADLY NEEDS GIVEN WHAT'S
GOING ON IN WASHINGTON.
I SAID TO HIM, LOOK AT OUR HUMAN
SERVICES BUDGET, LOOK AT OUR
EDUCATION BUDGET, THEY'RE
CLEARLY OVERLAPPING IN SOME OF
THE SERVICES THEY'RE PROVIDING
SOME OF OUR CHALLENGED KIDS IN
THIS STATE.
WHY DON'T WE WORK TOGETHER, LOOK
AT THE FRONT LINES OF THOSE TWO
MASSIVE BUDGETS AND SAY WHERE
CAN WE FIND OPPORTUNITIES TO
REDUCE REDUNDANCIES A SAVE
MONEY.
FUNDING THESE KINDS OF IDEAS IS
PARTLY THROUGH A TEMPORARY
INVESTMENT IN VERMONT BY OUR
WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS AND PARTLY
THROUGH LOOKING DOWN AT THE
FRONT LINES FOR EFFICIENCIES IN
GOVERNMENT THAT AREN'T ABOUT
JUST CUTTING PROGRAMS, BUT
ACTUALLY AROUND TALKING TO OUR
FRONT LINE STATE EMPLOYEES,
STATE WORKERS, DESIGNATED AGENCY
FOLKS, TEACHERS, SOCIAL WORKERS,
AND SAY HOW CAN THIS SYSTEM WORK
BETTER, WHAT ASPECT OF THIS
DECADES-OLD SYSTEM CAN WE
UPGRADE TO MODERN TIMES AND
CREATE BETTER OUTCOMES.
>> Darren: SO GETTING BACK TO
THIS TAX ON THE RICHEST
VERMONTERS, IS IT FAIR TO CALL
THIS A WEALTH TAX?
>> Zuckerman: THAT'S NOT QUITE
ACCURATE BECAUSE TAXING WEALTH
MEANS WHAT ARE YOUR ASSETS WORTH
AND WHAT ARE WE GOING TO TAX YOU
WITH RESPECT TO THOSE ASSETS,
WHETHER IT'S A LOT OF PROPERTY,
WHETHER IT'S STOCK.
THOSE ARE ALL ASSETS.
THAT'S WHAT WEALTH IS.
THIS WOULD STILL BE AN
INCOME-BASED TAX.
IF YOU ARE -- I DON'T HAVE AN
EXACT NUMBER, BUT IF YOU HAVE
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS
OF INCOME EVERY YEAR AND VERMONT
WERE TO SAY ARE YOU READY, DO
YOU HAVE THE VALUES THAT
VERMONTERS HAVE TO INVEST IN OUR
ECONOMY FOR THE FUTURE TO THE
TUNE OF AN ADDITIONAL 5, 10, I'M
NOT SURE EXACTLY HOW MANY
THOUSANDS PER PERSON AT WHAT
RATE, BUT WE'RE TALKING THE
WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS, TO
AGGREGATE TOGETHER TO INVEST IN
OUR STATE AND OUR FUTURE AND OUR
CLIMATE, WHICH IS BOTH AN
ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY, BUT ALSO A
MORAL IMPERATIVE.
WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO OR SOUTH.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE -- TO OUR
YOUTH.
THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO BE
TALKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF
RAISING REVENUE AND MANY FOLKS
IN THOSE CLASSES HAVE SAID
BEFORE, WE'RE WILLING TO STEP
UP, AND RIGHT NOW GIVEN THE
URGENCY OF OUR CLIMATE CRISIS,
THE SPORADIC WEATHER.
LET ME TELL YOU A STORY.
I WAS AT THE FARMERS MARKET LAST
WEEKEND AND A YOUNG WOMAN, 17
YEARS OLD, SAID TO ME I'M
THINKING I'M PROBABLY NOT GOING
TO HAVE CHILDREN IN MY LIFETIME.
THINK ABOUT ALL THAT THAT MEANS
WITH RESPECT TO OUR POPULATION,
IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT IT AS
JUST NUMBERS, BUT THINK ABOUT
WHAT THAT MEANS IN TERMS OF HOPE
AND VISION.
HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS STATE
HAVE HAD CHILDREN AND VALUE THE
MULTIGENERATIONS OF FAMILY AND
ABILITY TO TALK TO YOUR
GRANDPARENTS AND YOUR PARENTS
AND CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN.
IMAGINE THAT JUST ENDING BECAUSE
YOUNG PEOPLE SAY I DON'T WANT TO
BRING YOUNG PEOPLE INTO THIS
WORLD FOR THE FUTURE IT'S GOING
TO HAVE.
THAT'S THE TIME AND CIRCUMSTANCE
THAT WE FIND OURSELVES IN, AND
THE QUESTION IS, ARE THOSE WHO
ARE EARNING HUGE SUMS OF MONEY
AND WHO JUST RECEIVED A MASSIVE
TAX CUT UNDER THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION, HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, TO SAY,
OKAY, KEEP SOME OF THAT, SEND IT
DOWN TO WALL STREET, BUT ALSO
ARE YOU WILLING TO INVEST SOME
OF THAT IN VERMONT'S ECONOMIC
CLIMATE FUTURE?
I THINK MANY WILL SAY YES.
>> Darren: BUT YOU'RE NOT
PREPARED TO SAY WHO THAT IS AT
THIS POINT, WHAT SALARY WOULD
TRANSLATE INTO THIS PROPOSED
TAX?
>> Zuckerman: WELL, I WILL SAY
SOME STATISTICS FOR YOU.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S WHERE THE
CUTOFF IS, BUT THE WEALTHIEST
10% OF VERMONTERS, 10% OF THE
HOUSEHOLDS MAKE $150,000 OR
MORE.
I THINK THAT NUMBER IS PROBABLY
TOO LOW IN TERMS OF WHERE THE
CUTOFF WOULD BE.
I THINK IT HAS TO BE UP OVER
200, $250,000, BUT THOSE
VERMONTERS RECEIVED ABOUT A
$300 MILLION ANNUAL TAX CUT
UNDER THE TRUMP TAX PLAN, SO IF
WE GO TO A HIGHER NUMBER, THE
NUMBER IS SMALLER AND I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT ASKING THEM TO PUT
ALL OF THAT TOWARDS VERMONT'S
ECONOMIC FUTURE, BUT IF SOME
PORTION OF $200 MILLION FROM THE
WEALTHIEST VERMONTERS' TAX CUTS
UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION
WENT INTO A THREE- TO FIVE-YEAR
VERMONT CLIMATE AND ECONOMY
INVESTMENT PLAN, THAT WOULD PAY
HUGE DIVIDENDS FOR VERMONT.
IT WOULD ALLOW VERMONT TO STAY
WHAT IT IS AND EVEN GROW TO BE A
BETTER STATE SO THAT THOSE FOLKS
THAT DO LIVE HERE WITH THOSE
RESOURCES ALSO WILL SEE THE
COMMUNITIES AROUND THEM
THROUGHOUT OUR WORLD SURVIVE AND
THRIVE.
>> Darren: STICKING WITH THE
MONEY ISSUE, A LOT OF VERMONTERS
ARGUE THAT VERMONT'S TOO
EXPENSIVE ALREADY.
HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO PEOPLE WHO
SAY THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO LIVE
HERE?
>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK
THAT'S VERY ACCURATE FOR WORKING
CLASS VERMONTERS, IT IS TOO
EXPENSIVE AND THE GOVERNOR HAS
DONE A GREAT JOB OF TALKING
ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.
WHERE THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN
SOMEWHAT NOT FULLY PRESENTED IS
THAT THAT AFFORDABILITY ISSUE IS
ABOUT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.
THE WEALTHIEST IN THE STATE CAN
VERY MUCH AFFORD TO LIVE HERE,
AND IN FACT, WE'VE SEEN AN
INFLUX OF THE WEALTHIEST CLASSES
OF PEOPLE IN VERMONT, NOT AN
OUTFLOW.
THE OUTFLOW IS WORKING CLASS
STRUGGLING VERMONTERS AND THAT'S
THE REASON I'M ASKING THE
WEALTHIEST WILL WOULD YOU WORK
TO MAKE STATE MORE AFFORDABLE,
ARE YOU WILLING TO IN
WEATHERIZING OUR HOMES, IN WHICH
WE HAVE A LOT OF OLD HOUSING
STOCK THAT WORKING CLASS PEOPLE
ARE LIVING IN, PAY HUGE HEATING
BILLS.
THAT MAKES VERMONT MORE
AFFORDABLE.
S ARE YOU WILLING TO ITS VEST IN
OUR STATE WITH A STRONGER
ECONOMY SO INSTEAD OF RAISING
FISHING LICENSES, DRIVER'S
LICENSES, REGISTRATION FEES,
CAMP PERMIT FEES.
WHENEVER WE GET INTO THE
RHETORIC OF NO NEW TAXES, IT'S
IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT
BILLS COME DUE AND THEN FOLKS
SAY NO INCOME TAX ON THE
WEALTHIEST AND NO BROAD-BASED
TAX, THAT MEANS WORKING
VERMONTERS GET HIT IN THE
POCKETBOOK WITH FEES.
I THINK THAT WILL RESONATE WITH
VERMONTERS.
THERE'S A LOT OF VERMONTERS
MAKING 20, 30, 60, $80,000 A
YEAR WHO ARE STRUGGLING TO GET
BY AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WHEN
WE PUT IN NEW INITIATIVES,
THEY'RE NOT THE ONES WHO ARE
ASKED TO PAY FOR IT YET AGAIN
AND AGAIN.
>> Darren: YOU'VE BEEN A LONG
TIME PROPONENT OF A LEGAL MARKET
FOR MARIJUANA.
WILL IT PASS THIS YEAR, YOU
THINK, AND IF SO, WHAT DO YOU
THINK SHOULD BE DONE WITH THAT
REVENUE?
>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK IT'S
INTERESTING.
THERE'S AN INDICATOR THAT MAYBE
IT WILL GET THE SUPPORT OF THE
GOVERNOR THIS YEAR BECAUSE I
BELIEVE HIS FUNDING SOURCE FOR
HIS UNIVERSAL AFTER-SCHOOL
PROGRAMS THAT HE WANTS TO
IMPLEMENT OVER THE NEXT FIVE
YEARS MAY BE PREDICATED ON
REVENUES FROM BRINGING OUR
CANNABIS INDUSTRY THAT'S FULLY
ALIVE AND WELL IN VERMONT ABOVE
BOARD.
AS YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN
ADVOCATING FOR CHANGING THOSE
LAWS FOR QUITE SOME TIME.
I THINK FROM A SAFETY
PERSPECTIVE, A CLEANLINESS OF
THE PRODUCT, PULLING IT OUT OF
THE SHADOWS AND MAKING IT
LESS -- NOT ELIMINATE, BUT LESS
EASY TO GET FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE
HAS BEEN THE RIGHT WAY TO GO TO
A LONG TIME.
WE'VE MISSED SOME OF THE EARLY
OPPORTUNITY THAT THAT WOULD HAVE
GENERATED IN TERMS OF TOURISM
AND REVENUES, BUT I DO THINK
REVENUES WILL COME IN FROM THAT.
I ALSO THINK THAT IT WILL BE A
GREAT RURAL ECONOMY AND RURAL
POPULATION BOOSTER BECAUSE,
REALLY, THE BEST MODEL WILL HAVE
LOTS OF SMALL GROWER FACILITIES
AND FIELDS ALL AROUND THE STATE,
ALLOWING PEOPLE TO LIVE AND WORK
IN THEIR COMMUNITIES WITH A
DECENT INCOME RATHER THAN THE
CONCENTRATION WE SEE IN VERMONT,
WHICH BY THE WAY, AGAIN, IN
TERMS OF FACTS AND INFORMATION,
IS A LITTLE BIT MISREPRESENTED
IN THAT RURAL AREAS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY, DOESN'T MATTER HOW RED,
WHETHER IT'S NEBRASKA OR
WYOMING, OR BLUE, VERMONT OR
CALIFORNIA, RURAL AREAS ARE
DEPOPULATING.
IN FACT, VERMONT, FOR ALL OUR
STRUGGLES AND TROUBLES, IS
ACTUALLY DEPOPULATING IN RURAL
AREAS MORE SLOWLY THAN MANY
STATES ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND
SO WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT OUR
STRENGTHS ARE.
WE HAVE PROXIMITY TO THE BOSTON
AND CONNECTICUT AND NEW YORK
MARKETS THAT RURAL NEBRASKA AND
WYOMING JUST DO NOT HAVE.
SO WE ACTUALLY, THROUGH
EXPANDING BROADBAND, ALLOWING A
LEGAL REGULATED CANNABIS SYSTEM
THAT WILL NOT ONLY REPOPULATE
AND CREATE JOBS IN OUR RURAL
AREAS, BUT WILL GENERATE INCOME
FOR THE STATE THAT WE CAN INVEST
IN OTHER ASPECTS LIKE BROADBAND
THAT WILL ALSO REPOPULATE OUR
RURAL AREAS AND WILL FRANKLY
ATTRACT MORE YOUNG PEOPLE AND
YOUNG FAMILIES WHEN WE HAVE THE
MODERN TOOLS OF THE MODERN
ECONOMY.
>> Darren: LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR
POTENTIAL OPPONENT.
WE SHOULD POINT OUT THAT PHIL
SCOTT HASN'T ANNOUNCED IF HE'S
RUNNING YET, BUT IT'S LIKELY
HE'S ALREADY STARTED
FUNDRAISING.
HE'S POPULAR, HE'S AN INCUMBENT,
HE HAS HIGH APPROVAL RATINGS,
AND INCUMBENTS ARE VERY HARD TO
BEAT IN VERMONT.
THEY RARELY LOSE.
HOW DO YOU WIN?
>> Zuckerman: WELL, I THINK IF
YOU REALLY LOOK AT THE NUMBERS
FROM THE LAST FEW YEARS, THE
NUMBERS ARE PRETTY EQUAL FOR THE
GOVERNOR AND I.
THERE'S NO DOUBT WE HAVE A
NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT VOTED FOR
BOTH OF US.
OTHERWISE, WE WOULD NOT BE THE
TWO PEOPLE IN THE POSITIONS
WE'RE IN.
I BELIEVE I'VE GOT PRETTY GOOD
RAPPORT WITH PEOPLE ALL ACROSS
THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM AND THE
STATE FOR THE WORK I'VE DONE ON
ISSUES RANGING FROM MARRIAGE
EQUALITY TO RAISING THE MINIMUM
WAGE, GMO, AFFORDABLE
HEALTHCARE.
I'VE WORKED WITH PEOPLE ALL OVER
THE STATE NOW FOR DECADES.
I BELIEVE A LOT OF VERMONTERS
LOOK AT WHO THE PEOPLE ARE AND
THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH
CHOICE BETWEEN THE GOVERNOR AND
I.
THERE'S NO DOUBT.
I THINK IT'S BEEN ALMOST 60
YEARS SINCE AN INCUMBENT WAS
BEATEN IN VERMONT, BUT I DO
BELIEVE THE TYPE IS RIGHT.
THE INTEREST IN MORE ACTION THAN
WORDS IS GOING TO GENERATE A LOT
OF PEOPLE COMING OUT TO THE
POLLS.
I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A HIGH
TURNOUT YEAR.
THERE ARE A LOT OF MAJOR ISSUES
FOR A LOT OF VERMONTERS, BUT THE
YOUNG FOLKS PLEADING FOR CLIMATE
CRISIS LEGISLATION AND HAVE NOT
SEEN THAT OTHER THAN WORDS
PRIMARILY FOR THE LAST THREE
YEARS AROUND THIS ISSUE ARE
GOING TO COME OUT AND THEY'RE
NOT EXCITED ABOUT SOMEONE WHO
HAD A PANEL THAT'S CREATED 54
IDEAS, OF WHICH ONLY THREE HAVE
BEEN IMPLEMENTED.
SO PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT
OUR FUTURE AND REAL ACTION, I
HOPE TO INSPIRE THEM TO VOTE AND
TO VOTE FOR ME, AND WE'LL SEE
WHERE THE CHIPS FALL IN
NOVEMBER, BUT I THINK I'VE GOT A
REAL SHOT.
THERE WAS EVEN ANALYSIS OUT OF
VIRGINIA THAT JUST CHANGED WITH
MY ANNOUNCEMENT THAT IT WAS
LIKELY A REPUBLICAN ELECTION
VICTORY TO NOW LEAN REPUBLICAN.
SO CLEARLY SOMEONE OUT THERE
THINKS I HAVE A SHOT TO MAKE
THIS A REAL RACE AND SO DO I.
>> Darren: YOU HAVE TO GET
THROUGH THE PRIMARY FIRST, SO
LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR PRIMARY
CHALLENGER, FORMER EDUCATION
SECRETARY REBECCA HOLCOMB.
SHE ANNOUNCED THIS SUMMER.
OUTLINE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THE TWO OF YOU.
>> Zuckerman: I'M GOING TO LET
VOTERS OUTLINE THE DIFFERENCES.
CERTAINLY I HAVE A LOT OF
EXPERIENCE IN EFFECTIVELY
GETTING THINGS DONE AND MOVED IN
VERMONT.
I'VE WORKED WITH VERMONTERS
ACROSS ALL POLITICAL STRIPES TO
BRING UP IDEAS AND TALK ABOUT
ISSUES AND TO LISTEN AND ADJUST
THOSE ISSUES TO THEY FIT BETTER
WITH THE BROAD SPECTRUM OF
VERMONTERS' INTERESTS.
MY OPPONENT IS EXTRAORDINARY
INTELLIGENT, HARD WORKING, HAS
DONE A LOT FOR THIS STATE AS
WELL, SO I KNOW SHE'S GOING TO
RUN A GREAT CAMPAIGN AND I THINK
THE WORK I'VE DONE OVER THESE
YEARS CLEARLY, THREE YEARS AGO,
THE PRIMARY I WAS IN WAS ROBUST,
IT WAS POSITIVE.
IT WAS NOT NEGATIVE.
I SUSPECT THAT WILL BE THE SAME
HERE.
I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THAT, AND
WE'LL LET VOTERS DECIDE.
SO YES, THERE ARE TWO RACES TO
WIN AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT I CAN
WIN THOSE AND I WILL WORK HARD
TO DO SO.
>> Darren: DAVID ZUCKERMAN,
THANK YOU.
>> Zuckerman: THANK YOU, DARREN.
I APPRECIATE THE OPPORTUNITY.
>> Darren: STILL AHEAD,
ONE-ON-ONE WITH SENATOR PATRICK
LEAHY.
HIS TAKE ON THE TRUMP
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AND THE
HANDSHAKE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
WHAT THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN
BERNIE SANDERS AND ELIZABETH
WARREN COULD MEAN FOR BOTH OF
THEIR CAMPAIGNS.
EXPERT ANALYSIS NEXT.
>> Darren: CAMPAIGN 2020, NOW
SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS AND
ELIZABETH WARREN STILL NOT
TALKING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF
THEIR POST-DEBATE DEBATE.
THE TWO TANGLED ON STAGE OVER A
PRIVATE CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE
TWO OF THEM THAT TOOK PLACE TWO
YEARS AGO.
WARREN SAYS SANDERS TOLD HER IN
2018 THAT A WOMAN COULD NOT WIN
THE PRESIDENCY.
ASKED ABOUT IT ON STAGE DURING
TUESDAY'S DEBATE IN IOWA,
SANDERS SAID THAT'S NOT TRUE.
AND WE STILL HAVE NOT GOTTEN ANY
CONTEXT REGARDING THAT ALLEGED
CONVERSATION.
ONCE THE DEBATE ENDED, WARREN
CHALLENGED HIM AND DIDN'T SHAKE
SANDERS' HAND.
TAKE A LOOK.
>> I THINK YOU CALLED ME A LIAR
ON NAITONAL TV.
>> WHAT?
>> I THINK YOU CALLED ME A LIAR
ON NATIONAL TV.
>> LET'S NOT DO IT RIGHT NOW.
YOU WANT TO HAVE THAT
DISCUSSION, LET'S HAVE THAT
DISCUSSION.
YOU CALLED ME --
>> I DON'T WANT TO GET IN THE
MIDDLE, I WANT TO SAY HI.
>> Darren: SANDERS TOLD
REPORTERS THAT HE AND WARREN
HAVE NOT SPOKEN SINCE.
>> HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO SENATOR
WARREN SINCE THE DEBATE?
HAVE YOU RESOLVED ANYTHING
THERE?
>> NO, WE HAVEN'T.
>> Darren: WHAT DOES THAT MEAN
FOR THEIR CAMPAIGNS?
MIDDLEBURY COLLEGE POLITICAL
SCIENTIST MATT DICKINSON IS HERE
TO TALK ABOUT THAT, THE MOST
RECENT DEBATE AND HOW THAT COULD
MAKE A DIFFERENCE THIS CAMPAIGN
SEASON.
>> Dickinson: GOOD MORNING.
>> Darren: RIGHT OFF THE BAT,
WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT
EXCHANGE?
>> Dickinson: NOBODY KNOWS WHAT
WAS SPOKEN.
BOTH SIDES THINK THEY'RE
HONESTLY REMEMBERING IT
CORRECTLY, BUT IN TERMS OF
POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS, WARREN
CAME OUT THE BEST BECAUSE SHE
USED IT TO MAKE A BROADER POINT
ABOUT GENDER AND THE FAILURE TO
ELECT A WOMAN CANDIDATE, AND
REMEMBER, THIS IS A SENSITIVE
POINT FOR THE SANDERS CAMPAIGN.
THERE'S SOME ALLEGATIONS THAT HE
DID NOT COME OUT STRONGLY IN
BEHALF OF HILLARY CLINTON IN
2016.
THERE'S ALLEGATIONS OF SEXISM
WITHIN HIS PERSONAL STAFF, SO
SHE WAS ABLE TO DO THIS BROADER
POINT.
>> Darren: DOES THIS HURT OR
HELP EITHER CAMPAIGN OR DOES IT
HELP SOMEBODY ELSE?
>> Dickinson: WE SHOULD BE CLEAR
HERE.
IF IT WASN'T THIS INCIDENT, IT
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING ELSE.
YOU HAVE TWOS FOR LISTS VYING
FOR THE -- TWO POPULISTS VYING
FOR THE SAME CONSTITUENCY, THEY
CAN'T BOTH WIN THE NOMINATION.
I THINK BOTH ARE WORRIED THAT
RATHER THAN CONSOLIDATING
SUPPORT BEHIND ONE OF THEM,
THEY'RE GOING TO SPLIT THE
SUPPORT AND OPEN THE DOORS FOR A
CENTRIST LIKE BIDEN.
>> Darren: WE'VE HEARD FROM A
COUPLE OF FORMER VERMONT
GOVERNORS, PETER SHUMLIN SAYING
BERNIE PLAYS DIRTY POLITICS
SOMETIMES, ALLEGATIONS THAT HIS
CAMPAIGN HANDED OUT PAMPHLETS
SAYING THAT WARREN ONLY APPEARS
FOR WEALTHY PEOPLE AND FORMER
GOVERNOR MADELEINE CUNIN WHO
TOOK ISSUE WITH BERNIE SANDERS
AND SAID BASICALLY SHE THINKS
ELIZABETH WARREN IS TELLING THE
TRUTH.
DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?
>> Dickinson: I THINK IT GIVES
YOU AN IDEA OF HOW ONE SIDE IS
PLAYING THIS AND IF YOU GO TO
SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE THE OPINIONS
ARE MUCH STRONGER, YOU CAN SEE
DESPITE THE EFFORTS OF THE
CANDIDATES TO TRY TO MOVE BEYOND
THIS, PARTS OF THE CONSTITUENCY
ARE NOT GOING TO LET THAT HAPPEN
AND AGAIN IT GETS TO THIS
BROADER POINT.
THERE ARE DEEP DIFFERENCES IN
THE PROGRESSIVE COALITION
REGARDING WHICH CANDIDATE IS THE
BEST STANDARD BEARER GOING
FORWARD, AND IN MANY RESPECTS,
THIS IS JUST THE TIP OF THE
ICEBERG.
>> Darren: LET'S MOVE ON TO THE
ACTUAL DEBATE.
ANY SURPRISES?
I EXPECTED EVERYBODY TO COME OUT
SWINGING, BUT ASIDE FROM THIS
LITTLE THING, THEY DIDN'T.
>> Dickinson: I HAD THE SAME
EXPECTATION AS YOU DID, DARREN,
AND I THINK PART OF THE PROBLEM
THAT WE MISSED HERE, IN IOWA, IF
YOU DON'T GET 15% OF THE
SUPPORT, YOUR SUPPORT GOES TO
SOMEBODY ELSE AND I THINK A LOT
OF CANDIDATES LOOKING FORWARD TO
IOWA DIDN'T WANT TO IN SOME
SENSE TURN OFF POTENTIAL SUPPORT
FROM OTHER CANDIDATES WHO MIGHT
NOT MAKE THAT THRESHOLD.
IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, ATTACKING
THE OTHER PEOPLE, I THOUGHT
KOBUCHAR TOOK THE GLOVES OFF
AMONG ALL OF THEM, BUT IT'S
UNDERSTANDABLE WHY.
SHE'S THE ONE NOT MAKING THAT
15% THRESHOLD RIGHT NOW, SO SHE
IMPRESSED ME ONLY IN THE SENSE
THAT SHE SEEMED TO BE ON THE
OFFENSIVE THAT WHOLE TIME, MADE
THE BEST CASE FOR WHY HER
CANDIDACY IS THE ONE MOST LIKELY
TO BEAT TRUMP.
>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP WON
IN IOWA IN 2016 AND A LOT OF
FOLKS ARE STILL UNDECIDED.
POLLS SHOW THAT.
ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THAT AND DO
YOU THINK A DEMOCRAT STANDS A
CHANCE?
>> Dickinson: A DEMOCRAT
CERTAINLY STANDS A CHANCE.
TRUMP AS AN INCUMBENT HAS A LOT
OF ADVANTAGES, BUT HE'S NOT THE
MOST POPULAR INCUMBENT WE'VE
HAD.
WHAT THIS POINTS TO IS THIS IS A
WIDE OPEN FIELD FOR THE
DEMOCRATS AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE
SEEN PEOPLE LIKE BLOOK BERG AND
DUVAL PATRICK COME IN QUITE LATE
BECAUSE SUPPORT HASN'T
CONSOLIDATED BEHIND ANY OF THE
OTHER OPPONENTS AND THEY'RE
HOPING THEY'LL CATCH FIRE.
>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP IS
CLAIMING THAT THIS LITTLE TIFF
AND ALSO THE TIMING OF THE
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS FOR THE
DEMOCRATS TO TAKE AIM AT BERNIE
SANDERS AND RIGGING THE
ELECTION, AS HE PUTS IT AGAIN?
>> Dickinson: I THINK THE
DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT WOULD
LIKE ANYBODY BUT BERNIE TO WIN
THIS NOMINATION AND THEY'RE
PROBABLY RIGHT, BUT KEEP IN MIND
FROM THE DEMOCRATS' PERSPECTIVE,
HE'S NOT BEEN A MEMBER OF THE
DEMOCRATIC PARTY EXCEPT FOR
EVERY FOUR YEARS WHEN HE'S
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.
I WOULD NOT GO SO FAR TO ARGUE
AS THEY'VE RIGGED THE TIMING OF
THE IMPEACHMENT.
THERE'S A LOT MORE DRIVING THIS
THAN CONSIDERATION FOR BERNIE'S
CAMPAIGN.
>> Darren: COMING UP NEXT,
VERMONT SENATOR PATRICK LEAHY
HELPED SET THE TABLE FOR THE
IMPEACHMENT OF PRESIDENT
CLINTON.
NEXT WE SIT DOWN WITH THE
SENATOR TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST
THE TWO TRIES AND FIND OUT WHAT
HE EXPECTS THIS TIME AROUND.
>> Darren: PRESIDENT TRUMP'S
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS SET TO
BEGIN IN THE U.S. SENATE.
SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN
ROBERTS TOOK THE OATH TO FREE
SIDE OVER THE TRIAL.
HE THEN SWORE IN ALL 100 U.S.
SENATORS WHO WILL BE ACTING AS
JURORS IN THE PRESIDENT'S TRIAL.
THE CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME
COURT WAS ESCORTED INTO THE
SENATE BY FOUR SENATORS,
INCLUDING VERMONT SENATOR
PATRICK LEAHY, AND TAKE A LOOK
AT THIS.
IT'S A PHOTO FROM 1999 WHEN
LEAHY WAS ON THE ESCORT
COMMITTEE DURING THE IMPEACHMENT
TRIAL OF PRESIDENT CLINTON.
LEAHY SAT DOWN WITH OUR
WASHINGTON BUREAU REPORTER KYLE
MIDURA TO TALK ABOUT
SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES
BETWEEN THE CASES.
>> Reporter: THANK YOU AS ALWAYS
FOR YOUR TIME.
THE THIRD TIME IN OUR HISTORY
THE SENATE IS LOOKING AT AN
IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
YOU'RE A FORMER PROSECUTOR, LONG
TIME POLITICIAN.
IF YOU BE TRULY IMPARTIAL IN THE
TRIAL GIVE VICE PRESIDENT PENCE
YOUR ISSUES WITH THE PRESIDENT?
>> Leahy: I WEIGH VERY STRONGLY
MY OATH AS A SENATOR.
I'LL LISTEN TO IT ALL AND MAKE
UP MY MIND AT THE END, BUT NO,
I'LL LISTEN TO THE EVIDENCE AND
I WANT TO HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.
I CAN THINK OF OTHER CHARGES
THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT,
BUT I'LL LISTEN TO WHAT IS
THERE.
WHAT I WORRY ABOUT ARE SENATORS
WHO ARE SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO
CONSULT WITH THE WHITE HOUSE AND
WITH THE PRESIDENT, THEY'LL ONLY
DO WHAT HE TELLS THEM TO DO.
THAT'S WRONG.
>> Reporter: YOU AND SENATOR
McCONNELL PLAYED A BIG PART IN
SETTING THE RULES IN 1998 FOR
THE CLINTON IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
AT THAT TIME, YOU WERE PUSHING
NOT TO HEAR FROM WITNESSES.
SENATOR McCONNELL ON THE OTHER
END, OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE A LITTLE
BIT OF A FLIP-FLOP, THE
CIRCUMSTANCES ARE CERTAINLY
DIFFERENT.
WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE PLAY
OUT THIS TIME AND WHY ARE THE
CIRCUMSTANCES --
>> Leahy: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
I -- I TAKE ISSUE WITH A COUPLE
POINTS IN THAT.
WE DID HAVE WITNESSES, A LOT OF
WITNESSES IN THE CLINTON
IMPEACHMENT.
EVERYBODY HAD TESTIFIED UNDER
OATH AT GREAT LENGTH, INCLUDING
PRESIDENT CLINTON.
HERE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS
REFUSED TO TESTIFY AND HE'S
ORDERED NINE KEY PEOPLE NOT TO
TESTIFY.
SO WE HAD ALL THAT GOING IN, BUT
WE STILL TOOK DEPOSITIONS THAT
WE ASKED ALL THE QUESTIONS.
WE CAN DO THAT AGAIN.
THE PROBLEM IS, UNLIKE IN THE
CLINTON ONE, WE DON'T HAVE THE
TESTIMONY OF ALL THESE PEOPLE
UNDER OATH, INCLUDING THE
PRESIDENT.
>> Reporter: DID THE HOUSE
HAMSTRING THE SENATE EFFORTS BY
NOT WAITING OUT THE COURTS TO
FORCE SOMEONE LIKE AMBASSADOR
BOLTON TO TESTIFY?
>> Leahy: THAT HAS TO BE A HOUSE
DECISION.
I'M NOT A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE.
I'M NOT TRYING TO DODGE THE
QUESTION.
I'VE TRIED VERY CAREFULLY NOT TO
SUGGEST WHAT THEY SHOULD OR
SHOULD NOT DO.
THERE'S NO REASON WHY JOHN
BOLTON AND THESE OTHERS THAT THE
PRESIDENT REFUSED TO ALLOW TO
TESTIFY, THERE'S NO REASON WHY
THEY COULDN'T BE CALLED TO
TESTIFY IN THE SENATE.
>> Reporter: YOU CAME INTO
OFFICE, SURPRISED MANY IN
VERMONT, IN NO SMALL PART
BECAUSE OF BLOWBACK FROM
PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON.
HOW DO YOU SEE THIS PROCESS
IMPACTING WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN
2020, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES
TO SENATOR SANDERS WHO MIGHT BE
STRUCK HERE IN A TRIAL INSTEAD
OF OUT ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL IN
IOWA?
>> Leahy: IT'S SUCH A DIFFERENT
TIME THAN 1974.
REMEMBER EVERY MAJOR NEWS
ORGANIZATION, INCLUDING YOURS,
HAD DECLARED DEFINITIVELY THAT I
WOULD NOT GET ELECTED.
WE HAD OUR THEN INFLUENTIAL
NEWSPAPER, A STRONG SUPPORTER OF
RICHARD NIXON, THAT I WOULD NOT
GET ELECTED.
THERE WAS STRONG SUPPORT FOR THE
VIETNAM WAR IN VERMONT.
THE MAJORITY SUPPORTED IT.
>> Reporter: SIR, YOU PENNED A
RECENT OP-ED SUGGESTING IT'S A
SHAME THAT WE'VE SEEN DOCUMENTS
THAT WERE REQUESTED BY THE HOUSE
AND WERE NOT RELEASED BY THE
WHITE HOUSE COME FORWARD THROUGH
THE FOIA PROCESS.
ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT THAT
BEING A CHALLENGE IN THE SENATE
PROCESS AS WELL?
>> Leahy: I WORRY VERY MUCH THAT
SENATOR McCONNELL IS
COORDINATING EVERYTHING WITH THE
WHITE HOUSE.
I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT DONE BEFORE
IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.
CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS DID NOT DO
THAT WITH PRESIDENT CLINTON WHEN
HE WAS UP FOR IMPEACHMENT.
THESE DOCUMENTS, THEY SHOW WHAT
WAS INVOLVED WITH UKRAINE, BUT
WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE A FOIA
PROCESS TO DO IT WHEN IT WAS
REQUESTED BY THE HOUSE.
>> Reporter: SENATOR, THANK YOU
AS ALWAYS FOR YOUR TIME.
>> Leahy: THANK YOU.
IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AND HAPPY
NEW YEAR.
>> Darren: WE HAVE MORE NEWS
STRAIGHT AHEAD.
HAVE A GREAT DAY.
CAPTIONING PROVIDED BY
CAPTION ASSOCIATES, LLC
www.captionassociates.com