YCQM: June 21, 2020
>> Darren: AND GOOD MORNING,
EVERYONE.
I'M DARREN PERRON.
RIGHT NOW ON "YOU CAN QUOTE ME,"
WHAT DOES SEX MEAN?
THE SUPREME COURT ANSWERS IN A
LANDMARK RULING THAT PROTECTS
THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY FROM
WORKPLACE DISCRIMINATION.
WE'LL GET ANALYSIS FROM AN
ATTORNEY WHO WAS INSTRUMENTAL IN
THE FIGHT FOR CIVIL UNIONS AND
GAY MARRIAGE IN VERMONT.
ALSO, A NEW HAMPSHIRE SENATOR
WONDERS WHY CHINA NEEDED TO
SUPPLY THE U.S. WITH PPE DURING
THE PANDEMIC.
HEAR THE EXCHANGE.
AND WHAT WOULD POLICING LOOK
LIKE IN BURLINGTON IF THE FORCE
WAS CUT BY 30%?
THIS MORNING, I'LL TALK TO
DEPUTY CHIEF JON MURAD, BUT
FIRST, CHANNEL 3'S DOM AMATO
TAKES A CLOSER LOOK AT THE
PROPOSAL BY RACIAL JUSTICE
ADVOCATES TO CUT THE NUMBER OF
COPS.
>> IT WOULD BE A HUGE LOSS FOR
OUR AGENCY.
>> Dom: THE BURLINGTON POLICE
DEPARTMENT FACE AND 10% DECREASE
IN NEXT YEAR'S BUDGET UNDER A
PLAN PUT FORWARD THIS WEEK BY
THE MAYOR.
ACCORDING TO DEPUTY CHIEF
MATTHEW SULLIVAN, THAT CUT IS
DOABLE, BUT HE SAYS IT'S THE
MAXIMUM THE DEPARTMENT COULD
HANDLE BEFORE SOME SERVICES
WOULD HAVE TO BE ELIMINATED.
REDUCING THE FORCE BY A FULL
30%, OR CUTTING 18 OFFICERS IN
ADDITION TO THE 12 VACANCIES THE
MAYOR WANTS TO LEAVE OPEN IS NOT
SOMETHING THEY'RE COMFORTABLE
WITH.
>> WE REALLY WOULD JUST HAVE TO
RESPOND TO CALLS FOR SERVICE
THAT INVOLVED PUBLIC SAFETY.
>> Dom: SULLIVAN SAYS NEARLY ALL
OF THEIR CALLS INCLUDE SOME
ASPECT OF SOCIAL WORK.
THE VERMONT RACIAL JUSTICE
ALLIANCE, WHICH IS PUSHING THE
DEEPER CUTS, SAYS LEAVE THE
SOCIAL WORK TO SOCIAL WORKERS.
>> WHAT WE'VE SEEN TIME AND TIME
AGAIN IN BURLINGTON AND VERMONT
AND IN THE COUNTRY THAT IS
POLICE ARE NOT BEST TO
FACILITATE THAT.
SAFETY OF THEMSELVES OR THE
PERSON EXPERIENCING CRISIS.
>> Dom: BUT POLICE SAY THEY ARE
RESPONDING TO MENTAL HEALTH
CRISES TO PROVIDE SAFETY AND
SUPPORT FOR THOSE SOCIAL
WORKERS.
THEY BELIEVE ELIMINATING
POSITIONS AT THE DEPARTMENT
WITHOUT MORE PLANS IN PLACE IS
DANGEROUS.
>> YOU HAVEN'T BUILT UP THE
SOCIAL SERVICES YET TO BE ABLE
TO SUPPORT IT, AND AGAIN, THOSE
SOCIAL SERVICES, WHENEVER
THERE'S A PUBLIC SAFETY ISSUE,
THEY RELY ON US TO PROVIDE THEM
WITH THE SAFETY SO THEY CAN
INTERACT SAFELY WITH THE
INDIVIDUAL THEY'RE TRYING TO
PROVIDE SERVICES FOR.
>> Dom: REFORM ADVOCATES ARGUE
INVESTING UP FRONT IN SOCIAL
SERVICES COULD REDUCE DEMANDS ON
POLICE AND THE FEWER COPS ON THE
STREETS COULD HELP BREAK DOWN
THE CULTURE OF PUNISHMENT THAT
DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTED
PEOPLE OF COLOR.
THE RACIAL EQUITY ALLIANCE
PUSHES BACK AGAINST A GO SLOW
APPROACH.
>> IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN LONG
BEFORE THIS, SO SAYING, OH, WE
NEED TO DO SLOWLY.
NO, WE NEED TO DO THIS
IMMEDIATELY.
>> Dom: THE ADVOCACY GROUP HAD
CALLED FOR A 30% REDUCTION IN
OFFICERS AS WELL AS INVEST MORE
CAPITAL INTO PEOPLE OF
COLOR-OWNED BUSINESSES AND TRACK
RACIAL EQUITY.
THEY SAY THE MAYOR'S BUDGET IS A
START, BUT DOESN'T HIT THE MARK.
THE MAYOR URGES CAUTION IN
MOVING TOO QUICKLY.
>> I'M ADVOCATING FOR URGENT
ACTION, BUT GETTING IT RIGHT AND
I THINK WE NEED MORE TIME AND
SOME FOCUS TO DO THAT.
>> Dom: REPORTING IN BURLINGTON,
DOM AMATO, CHANNEL 3 NEWS.
>> Darren: AND JOINING ME NOW TO
TALK MORE ABOUT THIS IS DEPUTY
CHIEF JON MURAD WITH THE BPD.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> Murad: THANK YOU FOR HAVING
ME, DARREN.
>> Darren: FIRST, THE DEPARTMENT
IS IN SUPPORT OF SOME CUTS,
RIGHT?
HOW MUCH?
>> Murad: WELL, WE'RE IN SUPPORT
OF THE PLAN PRESENTED BY THE
MAYOR AND IT'S A PLAN THAT WE
WORKED ON WITH THE MAYOR.
IT'S A PLAN THAT WAS BASED ON
SHARED SACRIFICE ACROSS CITY
AGENCIES, ALTHOUGH MORE FROM THE
BPD THAN OTHER CITY AGENCIES,
OWING TO REVENUE DECREASES
RELATED TO COVID-19.
THAT'S A SITUATION REAL FOR ALL
OF US, INESCAPABLE, AND WE
RECOGNIZE THE NEED TO MAKE
SACRIFICES TO DEAL WITH THAT
REAL PICTURE.
THOSE 10% CUTS ARTICULATED BY
THE MAYOR IS, HOW MUCH, AS FAR
AS WE FEEL WE CAN GO WHILE
MAINTAINING SERVICE THAT
BURLINGTONIANS COME TO EXPECT
AND THE PUBLIC SAFETY WE OWE OUR
NEIGHBORS.
>> Darren: LET'S DIVING INTO
THAT.
WHAT WOULD A 30% REDUCTION IN
FORCE MEAN TO THE DEPARTMENT, TO
BURLINGTON RESIDENTS?
>> Murad: SO, YOU KNOW, THERE
ARE TWO STORIES HERE WITH REGARD
TO A 30% REDUCTION.
THE STORIES ARE ONE OF THE
SERVICES AND THE DATA, AND THAT
IS COLD AND IMPERSONAL, BUT IT'S
REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE
ULTIMATELY THOSE SERVICES AFFECT
OUR NEIGHBORS.
THE OTHER STORY IS THE STORY OF
REAL-LIFE, FLESH AND BLOOD
OFFICERS WHO ARE GOING TO BE
FIRED TO MAKE THOSE KINDS OF
BUDGET CUTS POSSIBLE.
I'M NOT CERTAIN THAT THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT EITHER THE CITY
COUNCIL OR OUR NEIGHBORS
THROUGHOUT THE CITY HAVE THOUGHT
OF BECAUSE THESE, ULTIMATELY
ABOUT 18 OFFICERS.
THE CURRENT BUDGET PROPOSAL
LOSES 12 SPACES.
THOSE SPACES ARE IMPORTANT.
SAYING THEY'RE EMPTY AND GIVING
THEM UP MEANS NOTHING IS
ERRONEOUS.
THEY'RE IMPORTANT TO HAVE THE
BUFFER TO BUILD SO WE HAVE
CAPACITY WHEN MILITARY
DEPLOYMENT CALL OFFICERS AWAY OR
OFFICERS OUT SICK, JUST THE
NATURAL THINGS THAT CAUSE
OFFICERS TO BE INJURED OR
NEEDING TIME OFF.
BUT GOING FARTHER THAN THAT,
GOING INTO THE REALM OF 18
LIVING FLESH AND BLOOD OFFICERS
CUT MEANS LOSING THE NEWEST
OFFICERS THAT WE HAVE BROUGHT
ABOARD, OFFICERS WHO HAVE BEEN
TRAINED IN THE WAY THIS AGENCY
HAS BEEN WORKING OVER THE PAST
FIVE YEARS, WAYS THAT ARE
INCREDIBLY NEEDING FOR THE
PROFESSION, NATIONAL
PARAGONZALES OF DE-ESCALATION
AND EFFORT OF DEALING WITH
BARRICADED PERSONS, HANDLING
PEOPLE IN EMOTIONAL DISTRESS.
THOSE OFFICERS ARE ALSO SOME OF
OUR MOST DIVERSE WITH REGARD TO
GENDER, WITH REGARD TO RACE.
THEY COME FROM A VARIETY OF
BACKGROUNDS.
>> Darren: SO SOME ARE CALLING
FOR REALLOCATING FUNDS TO MENTAL
HEALTH WORKERS.
POLICE HAVE REPEATEDLY SAID MANY
OF THE CALLS ARE MENTAL HEALTH
CALLS, SO WHY SHOULDN'T THAT
HAPPEN?
>> Murad: I THINK THAT IT SHOULD
HAPPEN.
WHAT I'M SUGGESTING IS THAT IT
DOESN'T HAPPEN BY AN FIAT AND AN
AD HOC DECISION TO SAY WE'RE
CUTTING THIS.
IT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ASSESS THE
SITUATION IN WHICH YOU ARE IN,
IT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY
HAVE THE KIND OF RATIONAL
PROCESS THAT WE NEED TO DO,
UNDERSTANDING WHAT YOU'RE DOING.
THERE NEEDS TO BE ALTERNATIVE
VIABLE CAPACITIES FOR SOME OF
THESE OTHER THINGS TO WHICH
POLICE OFFICERS CURRENTLY
RESPOND, BUT THE VIABILITY IS
THE MOST IMPORTANT PART, AND YOU
CANNOT TURN OFF ONE THING AND
PRAY THAT SOMEHOW THE OTHER
THING WILL GET BUILT UP AND BE
ABLE TO RESPOND.
IF YOU DO, YOU WILL BE
DIMINISHING PUBLIC SAFETY.
PEOPLE WILL BE HURT IF THAT
OCCURS.
AND THAT'S ON TOP OF THE IDEA OF
OTHER THINGS WHICH OFFICERS
RESPOND THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY
MENTAL HEALTH, BUT ARE THINGS
THAT ARE NOISE COMPLAINTS,
THINGS THAT ARE ABOUT QUALITY OF
LIFE ISSUES THAT OUR NEIGHBORS
HAVE COME TO EXPECT OUR SERVICES
ABOUT.
AND WITH REGARD TO THOSE, WE ARE
GOING TO SEE A DIMINISHED
ABILITY TO RESPOND TO THOSE.
IN SOME INSTANCES, WE WILL NOT
RESPOND IN PERSON.
WE'LL HAVE TO DO SO BY PHONE OR
BY EMAIL.
WE'LL SEE EFFECTS ON THE REACHES
OF OUR CITY, THE NEW NORTH END,
THE SOUTH END.
THOSE ARE PARTS OF THE CITY THAT
ARE GOING TO SEE RESPONSE TIMES
DROP.
>> Darren: SHIFTING SUPPORT TO
SOCIAL SERVICES, THOUGH, JUST
PART OF THE DEFUND ARGUMENT.
THE OTHER PART IS THAT HAVING SO
MANY COPS ON THE STREETS CREATES
A CULTURE OF PUNISHMENT,
ESPECIALLY IN MINORITY
COMMUNITIES, AND SUPPORTERS OF
THIS CUT POINT TO SOME HIGH
PROFILE ALTERCATIONS WITH
BURLINGTON POLICE, EVEN DEADLY
USE OF FORCE, AS REASON TO
REDUCE THE NUMBER OF COPS ON THE
BEAT.
HOW DO YOU RESPOND?
>> Murad: I RESPOND THAT OUR
OFFICERS GO OUT DAY IN AND DAY
OUT TO TRY TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE
TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE.
THEY USE FORCE IN TWO-THIRDS OF
ONE PERCENT OF ALL THE INCIDENTS
TO WHICH THEY RESPOND.
TWO OF THOSE INCIDENTS THAT
YOU'RE REFERRING TO ARE IN
LITIGATION AND I CAN'T COMMENT
ON THEM FULLY, BUT I CAN SAY
THAT ALL THREE OF THOSE
INCIDENTS WERE REVIEWED BY
STATE'S ATTORNEY AND THE
ATTORNEY GENERAL IN ONE CASE IN
A LONG-TERM INVESTIGATION.
THEY WERE INDEPENDENTLY
INVESTIGATED IN ALL THREE
INSTANCES, DISCIPLINE WAS
RENDERED IN ALL THREE INSTANCES,
AND THAT DISCIPLINE WAS DONE IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW WITH AN
UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE HAD
BEEN NO CRIMINALITY IN ANY OF
THOSE INSTANCES, AND THAT THE
HUMAN RESOURCE AND CONTRACTUAL
OBLIGATIONS THEN TAKE EFFECT AND
RESULT IN WHAT WE HAVE FOR
OUTCOMES INTO THOSE INSTANCES.
AND THOSE ARE THINGS THAT YOU
DON'T -- THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE.
YOU DON'T HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
SAY I'M GOING TO GO BACK AND
LOOK AT THIS AGAIN ANY MORE THAN
YOU CASES WHERE DOUBLE JEOPARDY
APPLY, FAIRNESS APPLIES.
THOSE OFFICER ARE STILL
EMPLOYED.
>> Darren: ADVOCATES WANT TO CUT
SCHOOL RESOURCE OFFICERS BECAUSE
STUDIES SHOW MORE OFFICERS IN
SCHOOLS LEAD TO MORE DISCIPLINE
AGAINST STUDENTS,
DISPROPORTIONATE AGAINST AFRICAN
AMERICAN STUDENT MUCH.
YOU STILL HAVE OFFICERS IN
BURLINGTON SCHOOLS.
WOULD THOSE BE THE FIRST
POSITIONS CUT?
>> Murad: UNDER THE MAYOR'S
PLAN, THEY ARE NOT POSITIONS WE
WOULD CUT.
THE PLAN WITH THE MAYOR ALLOWS
US TO CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN THE
SERVICES WE CURRENTLY HAVE.
WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF ROOM FOR
ERROR ON IT, BUT WE DO MAINTAIN
THEM.
SROs ARE PART OF THAT BECAUSE
THEY'RE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.
THEY DEVELOP RELATIONSHIPS IN
THE SCHOOLS, DEVELOP
RELATIONSHIPS WITH NEW AMERICAN
COMMUNITIES, ALLOW US TO KNOW
KIDS AND UNDERSTAND THE DYNAMICS
OF KIDS' RELATIONSHIPS IN WAYS
THAT PATROL OFFICERS CAN'T
BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT IMMERSED IN
THAT WORLD.
OUR EXPERIENCE HERE IN
BURLINGTON IS VERY DIFFERENT
FROM THE EXPERIENCE BEING
DESCRIBED BY PEOPLE CALLING IN
OR PEOPLE WHO HAVE WRITTEN
LETTERS.
I DON'T DENY THAT THE NATIONAL
PICTURE FOR SROs HAS REAL FLAWS
AND HAVE SPOKEN WITH THE
INCOMING SUPERINTENDENT ABOUT
SOME OF THOSE ISSUES, BUT HERE
IN BURLINGTON, IT IS AN
INCREDIBLY SUCCESSFUL AND
EFFECTIVE PIECE OF WHAT WE DO
AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS
ACTUALLY DECREASED THE NUMBER OF
JUVENILE ARRESTS.
SINCE OUR MEMORANDUM OF
UNDERSTANDING WITH THE SCHOOL
DISTRICT, WE HAVE SEEN A
SIGNIFICANT DECREASE IN JUVENILE
ARRESTS, ESPECIALLY IN THE
SCHOOLS, BUT THROUGHOUT THE
CITY.
AND SOME OF THAT IS BECAUSE WHEN
PATROL OFFICERS INTERACT WITH
YOUTHS AND NOW KNOW TO CALL THE
SRO AND SAY DO YOU HAVE
ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT
THIS SITUATION, AND WE'RE ABLE
TO FIND SOLUTIONS THAT ARE NOT
ENFORCEMENT RELATED, THAT'S A
WIN AND THAT'S A WIN THAT'S
PREDICATED IN HAVING THOSE
OFFICERS IN THAT SCHOOL FORMING
RELATIONSHIPS EVERY SINGLE DAY.
BUT IF WE WENT TO A 30% CUT,
YES, THOSE OFFICERS WOULD
PROBABLY BE WITHDRAWN UNDER SUCH
A CUT BECAUSE WE WOULD RETRACT
TO OUR CORE SERVICE, THIS IS
PATROL AND DETECTIVE AND IS
LARGELY REACTIVE AND'S NOT
PROTIVE AND PREVENTIVE.
THE BEST THING POLICING CAN DO
IS HELP PREVENT CRIME AND
DISORDER WITH AND FOR OUR
NEIGHBORS.
WE RESPOND TO IT AS WELL.
THAT IS THE CORE IS THE
RESPONSE, BUT IF WE ARE FORCED
TO DRAW BACK INTO THAT CORE,
THAT IS ALL YOU WILL GET IS THE
RESPONSE.
YOU WILL NOT HAVE THE PREVENTIVE
ACTIONS, THE PROACTIVE ACTIONS,
THE FOOT PATROLS, THE DEVELOPING
OF RELATIONSHIPS, ALL THE
HALLMARKS OF COMMUNITY POLICING
THAT THIS AGENCY PIONEERED OVER
THE PAST 20 YEARS, AND
PARTICULARLY OVER THE PAST FIVE,
IT WILL FALL AWAY IF WE RETREAT
INTO A SMALLER POSITION AND
WE'LL ALSO END UP HAVING THE
RESPONSE TIMES DIMINISHED.
>> Darren: IS BETTER TRAINING
AND RECRUITING NEEDED TO BE SURE
THAT YOU DON'T GET A BAD COP?
>> Murad: SO, YOU KNOW, WE
CURRENTLY -- SINCE 2018, WE HAVE
HAD 543 APPLICATIONS AND 23
HIRES.
THAT'S A 4.5 OR SO PERCENT RATE.
WE ARE -- WE HAVE A VERY
RIGOROUS PROCESS FOR WHO WE
HIRE.
THOSE OFFICERS, BY THE WAY, IN
THAT COHORT ARE THE ONES THAT
WOULD BE LOST UNDER THE 30% CUT.
WE HAVE A VERY RIGOROUS PROCESS
FOR EVALUATING THEM THAT
INCLUDES BACKGROUND CHECKS.
IT INCLUDES POLYGRAPH, AND THEN
THERE IS A DIFFICULT AND ARDUOUS
PROCESS THROUGH THE VERMONT
POLICE ACADEMY AS WELL IN ORDER
TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE TRAINED
AND READY, BUT WHEN THEY COME TO
BURLINGTON, WE HAVE THE LONGEST
FIELD TRAINING PROGRAM IN THE
STATE AND IT IS ONE THAT
INCULCATES IN THEM A BURLINGTON
WAY OF DOING THINGS, WHICH IS
PREDICATED ON WORKING WITH OUR
COMMUNITY ON DE-ESCALATION,
DECELERATION, ALL THESE THINGS
WE RECENTLY ENCODED IN OUR NEW
USE OF FORCE POLICY THAT WAS
APPROVED BY THE BURLINGTON
POLICE COMMISSION EARLIER THIS
WEEK, BUT ARE THINGS WE'VE BEEN
TRAINING ON FOR QUITE SOME TIME,
LONG BEFORE THE POLICY CAME INTO
EFFECT.
SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE REALLY
CONFIDENT IN THE KIND OF
OFFICERS WE'RE CURRENTLY ABLE TO
RECRUIT AND HIRE, BUT WE WON'T
BE ABLE TO DO ANY RECRUITMENT OR
ANY HIRING AND VERY LITTLE
TRAINING UNDER THE, YOU KNOW, A
PROPOSAL LIKE 30%.
EVEN THE 10% CUT DRASTICALLY
DIMINISHES OUR TRAINING BUDGET.
>> Darren: DEPUTY CHIEF JON
MURAD, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
>> Murad: THANK YOU.
>> Darren: STILL AHEAD ON "YOU
CAN QUOTE ME," A BIG WIN FOR
LGBTQ RIGHTS.
WHAT THE SUPREME COURT'S NEW
RULING ON DISCRIMINATION MEANS
FOR GAY, LESBIAN, AND
TRANSGENDER WORKERS.
AND THE FIGHT FOR EQUAL RIGHTS.
DON'T GO AWAY.
>> Darren: IS THE U.S. PANDEMIC
RESPONSE HURTING THE COUNTRY'S
STANDING ON THE WORLD STAGE?
AT A SENATE HEARING ON PANDEMIC
PREVENTION, PREPARATION, AND
RESPONSE, NEW HAMPSHIRE SENATOR
JEANNE SHAHEEN ASKED HOW CHINA
HAS INCREASED ITS INFLUENCE
DURING THE PANDEMIC.
THE COUNTRY HAS AGGRESSIVELY
COUNTERED NEGATIVE NARRATIVES
ABOUT ITS ROLE IN THE PANDEMIC
AND HAS BEEN A PROVIDER OF PPE
FOR MANY COUNTRIES IN NEED,
INCLUDING THE U.S.
THE WITNESSES TOLD HER THAT
WHILE CHINA HAS ACCELERATED
THEIR FOREIGN AID IN RECENT
YEARS, IT DOESN'T COMPARE TO THE
DECADES OF AID AND LEADERSHIP
THE U.S. HAS PROVIDED OVER THE
PAST 40 YEARS.
>> MOST COUNTRIES ARE WILLING TO
ACCEPT FACE MASKS OR WHATEVER
FROM CHINA, BUT TO CHRIS'S
POINT, THEY OFTEN THEN GO AROUND
TO US AND SAY, HEY, IS THIS
FINANCING DEAL FROM CHINA ANY
GOOD.
WE'RE THE TRUSTED PARTNER AND
CHOICE, EVEN THOUGH WE'VE SEEN
CHINA REALLY ACCELERATE, BUT IF
YOU LOOK AT THEIR INVESTMENTS,
EVEN IN COVID VERSUS WHAT THE
U.S. HAS INVESTED, IT PALES IN
COMPARISON.
I THINK THEY JUST REALLY FOCUSED
ON GETTING THOSE HEADLINES.
>> Shaheen: WELL, LET ME JUST
POINT OUT THAT THE STATE OF NEW
HAMPSHIRE WAS ABLE TO GET
PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
FROM CHINA WHEN WE COULDN'T GET
IT FROM THE UNITED STATES OR
FROM FEMA, SO I THINK WE NEED TO
EXAMINE WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE
AND WHAT WE COULD BE DOING
BETTER IN ORDER TO ADDRESS THE
FALLOUT FROM THE PANDEMIC.
>> Darren: NEW HAMPSHIRE GOT
MILLIONS OF MASKS AND OTHER PPE
FROM CHINA.
>>> UP NEXT, ANALYSIS OF THE
SUPREME COURT RULING THAT STOPS
EMPLOYERS FROM DISCRIMINATING
AGAINST LGBTQ WORKERS.
>> Darren: A MAJOR VICTORY IN
THE BATTLE FOR LGBTQ RIGHTS.
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULED
THAT THE FEDERAL LAW PROTECTING
WORKERS ON THE BASIS OF SEX ALSO
APPLIES TO GAY, LESBIAN, AND
TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.
OUR NATALIE BRAND IS IN D.C.
WITH THE DETAILS ABOUT THE
RULING.
>> Reporter: IN A LANDMARK
DECISION FOR LGBTQ RIGHTS, THE
SUPREME COURT RULED EMPLOYERS
CANNOT DISCRIMINATE ON THE BASIS
OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION OR GENDER
IDENTITY.
IN A 6-3 RULING, THE NATION'S
HIGHEST COURT MADE IT CLEAR, THE
CIVIL RIGHTS OF ACT OF 1964 THAT
BARS DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS
OF SEX, RACE, COLOR, ORIGIN, OR
RELIGION, PROTECTS GAY AND
TRANSGENDER WORKERS.
>> IT'S BEEN A LONG JOURNEY THAT
WE FINALLY MADE IT HERE.
>> Reporter: WE INTERVIEWED
PLAINTIFF GERALD BOSTOCK WHEN HE
TRAVELED TO WASHINGTON FOR ORAL
ARGUMENTS LAST OCTOBER.
HE SAYS HE LOST HIS JOB IN
CLAYTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, AFTER
JOINING A GAY SOFTBALL LEAGUE.
>> I DID NOTHING WRONG AND NOW I
HAVE SOME VALIDATION IN THAT.
>> Reporter: HE WAS ONE OF THREE
CASES HEARD AT THE COURT THAT
DAY.
AMY STEPHENS, WHO SAYS SHE WAS
FIRED FOR BEING TRANSGENDER,
WROTE A STATEMENT BEFORE PASSING
AWAY LAST MONTH, SAYING IN PART,
I AM GLAD THE COURT RECOGNIZED
THAT WHAT HAPPENED TO ME IS
WRONG AND ILLEGAL.
>> WE CAN GO TO WORK AND NOT
HAVE TO BE IN FEAR THAT BEING
GAY, LESBIAN, BISEXUAL OR
TRANSGENDER WILL NOW BE A BLANK
CHECK FOR EMPLOYERS TO
DISCRIMINATE AGAINST US.
>> Reporter: SHARON McGOWAN OF
LAMBDA TELL HAS BEEN LITIGATING
THESE CASES FOR MORE THAN 15
YEARS.
SHE SAYS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
TODAY'S RULING WILL CREATE A
UNIFORM STANDARD NATIONWIDE IT.
>> DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER YOU
WORK IN ILLINOIS OR MISSOURI,
DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER OR NOT
YOU'RE IN OHIO OR INDIANA, YOU
WILL NOW HAVE THE FULL
PROTECTION OF THE LAW.
>> Reporter: THREE JUSTICES
DISSENTED.
JUSTICE KAVANAUGH WROTE, WE ARE
JUDGES, NOT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.
OUR ROLE IS NOT TO MAKE THE LAW.
BUT IN THE MAJORITY OPINION,
JUSTICE WROTE SOMEONE WHO FIRES
SOMEONE MERELY FOR BEING GAY OR
TRANSGENDER DEFIESES THE LAW.
>> Darren: TO TALK MORE ABOUT
THIS HISTORY RULING, I'M JOINED
BUT BY SUSAN MURRAY, AN ATTORNEY
WHO WAS ALSO A LGBTQ ACTIVIST
AND WAS INVOLVED IN THE LANDMARK
CASES THAT LED TO CIVIL UNIONS
AND SAME SEX MARRIAGE IN
VERMONT.
SUSAN, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
>> Murray: THANK YOU VERY MUCH,
DARREN.
I APPRECIATE YOUR ASKING ME.
>> Darren: WHAT DOES THIS RULING
MEAN FOR LGBTQ WORKERS AND
LITERALLY HAVE ANY IMPACT ON
VERMONTERS GIVEN THE LAWS WE
ALREADY HAVE IN PLACE HERE?
>> Murray: RIGHT, GREAT
QUESTION.
THIS CASE WAS AN INTERPRETATION
OF A FEDERAL LAW, FEDERAL CIVIL
RIGHTS LAW THAT WAS PASSED BACK
IN 1964 DURING THE LYNDON
JOHNSON ERA.
IT WAS CALLED TITLE 7, AND OVER
50 YEARS AGO, AND IT PROHIBITED
DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF
SEX.
SO THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WOMEN
COULD BE FIRED BECAUSE THEY WERE
PREGNANT OR IT WAS OKAY TO PAY
WOMEN LESS MONEY FOR DOING
EXACTLY THE SAME JOB THAT MEN
WERE DOING.
SO WE -- SO CONGRESS PASSED THAT
LAW 50-SOME-ODD YEARS AGO AND
PROHIBITED THAT KIND OF
DISCRIMINATION ON THE BASIS OF
SEX.
AND THIS CASE, FOR THE FIRST
TIME, MADE IT CLEAR THAT ON THE
BASIS OF SEX MEANS WORKERS WHO
ARE LGBTQ.
SO IT'S IMPORTANT FOR -- THERE
WERE 27 OR 28 STATES IN THIS
COUNTRY THAT STILL ALLOWED YOU
TO -- ALLOWED EMPLOYERS TO
DISCRIMINATE.
SO VERMONT PASSED AN
ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAW WAY BACK
IN 1992, SO IT'S BEEN 28 YEARS
SINCE VERMONT EMPLOYERS WERE
ABLE TO DISCRIMINATE, I'M HAPPY
TO SAY, PROUD TO SAY ABOUT OUR
STATE.
BUT IN 27 OR 28 -- I CAN'T
REMEMBER THE NUMBER OF STATES --
IT WAS POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO GET
MARRIED, LEGALLY MARRIED ON A
SATURDAY TO YOUR SAME SEX
PARTNER AND THEN GO TO WORK ON
MONDAY AND BE FIRED BECAUSE YOUR
EMPLOYER FOUND OUT THAT YOU WERE
A GAY PERSON OR A LESBIAN.
SO, YOU KNOW, THIS RULING SAYS
YOU CAN'T DO THAT ANYMORE, SO
IT'S A GREAT VICTORY.
>> Darren: NOW, YOU HEARD
JUSTICE KAVANAUGH, ONE OF THREE
WHO DISSENTED, WROTE WE ARE
JUDGES, NOT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.
OUR ROLE IS NOT TO MAKE OR AMEND
THE LAW.
YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> Murray: SO IT SOUNDS LIKE TWO
OF THE CONSERVATIVE JUSTICES,
JUSTICE KAVANAUGH AND JUSTICE
GORSUCH, ARE HAVING A
PHILOSOPHICAL BATTLE, A LEGAL
PHILOSOPHICAL BATTLE BETWEEN
THESE TWO CONCEPTS, COMPETING
CONCEPTS OF ORIGINAL INTENT
VERSUS TEXTUALISM, OKAY?
SO JUSTICE KAVANAUGH BELIEVES
THAT THE INTENT OF THE DRAFTERS
OF THE LEGISLATION, CONGRESS,
BACK IN 1964, IS WHAT MATTERS
AND SO YOU SHOULD GO BACK TO
1964 AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THE
LEGISLATORS, THE CONGRESS
PEOPLE, MOSTLY MEN IN 1964,
WHETHER THEY THOUGHT THAT THEY
WERE INCLUDING LGBTQ PEOPLE IN
THIS LAW WHEN THEY PASSED IT.
THAT'S WHAT JUSTICE KAVANAUGH IS
SAYING.
HE'S SAYING NO, THERE'S NO WAY
THESE LEGISLATORS COULD EVER
POSSIBLY HAVE CONSIDERED THEIR
LEGISLATION OR INTENDED THEIR
LEGISLATION TO BE COVERING LGBTQ
FOLKS.
JUSTICE GORSUCH SAYS, WAIT A
SECOND, IF YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE
BETWEEN THE ACTUAL WORDS IN THE
STATUTE, THE ACTUAL WORDS IN THE
LAW, OR HAVE TO DISCERN THE
INTENT OF 150 MEMBERS OF THE
HOUSE OR ANOTHER 100 MEMBERS OF
THE SENATE, HOWEVER MANY
LEGISLATORS THERE WERE BACK THEN
WHO PASSED THIS LAW, YOU HAVE TO
JUST LOOK AT THE TEXT BECAUSE
YOU CAN'T RELY ON THE INTENT OF
THAT MANY LEGISLATORS TO EVEN
COME UP WITH A COMMON IDEA ABOUT
WHAT THEY THOUGHT.
SO HE -- JUSTICE GORSUCH, IN
OTHER CASES, HAS WEIGHED THE
ACTUAL LANGUAGE OF THOSE
STATUTES, THE TEXT OF THE
STATUTE AS BEING MUCH MORE
IMPORTANT AND TRUMPING, IF I CAN
USE THAT WORD, THE INTENT THAT
MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE EXISTED BACK
THEN.
SO FOR HIM, THE WORD "SEX" IN
THIS LAW WAS -- DECIDED THE
MATTER FOR HIM.
>> Darren: WERE YOU SURPRISED BY
THE HIGH COURT, THAT IT WENT IN
THIS DIRECTION?
>> Murray: I WOULD BE LYING IF I
SAID I WASN'T.
THIS IS A HYPER-POLARIZED
ENVIRONMENT WE'RE LIVING IN AND
I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN SURPRISED
IF THE FIVE CONSERVATIVE
JUSTICES ON THE SUPREME COURT
HAD, YOU KNOW, FOLLOWED THEIR
POLITICAL LEANINGS TO ALLOW THIS
DECISION, TO MAKE THIS DECISION.
SO I WAS IMPRESSED BY JUSTICE
GORSUCH'S INTEGRITY.
HE FOLLOWED HIS JUDICIAL
PHILOSOPHY, WHICH WAS TO
INTERPRET THE TEXT OF THE LAW
DESPITE WHETHER OR NOT HE LIKE
THE OUTCOME.
THAT'S WHAT HE DID, AND SO I
RESPECT THAT INTEGRITY.
WAS I SURPRISED?
YES.
>> Darren: IS THERE GREATER
SIGNIFICANCE TO THIS RULING
REGARDING LGBTQ RIGHTS IN THE
U.S.?
>> Murray: SURE.
YOU KNOW, THE -- THE FIGHT IS
NOT OVER, RIGHT?
THIS IS A BATTLE FOR JUSTICE FOR
LGBTQ FOLKS.
THERE ARE STILL PLACES, NOT IN
VERMONT LUCKILY, BUT THERE ARE
STILL PLACES IN THIS COUNTRY
WHERE LGBTQ PEOPLE CAN BE DENIED
ACCOMMODATIONS, THEY CAN BE
KICKED OUT OF RESTAURANTS, THEY
CAN BE KICKED OUT OF STORES,
THEY CAN BE DENIED HOUSING, THEY
DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO SOCIAL
SERVICES, THINGS LIKE THAT.
SO THE EQUALITY DOESN'T -- FULL
EQUALITY DOESN'T YET EXIST, BUT
HAVING SAID THAT, THIS IS A HUGE
DECISION.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT WE'RE
ARCING TOWARD JUSTICE, I THINK.
YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE POINT OF
TITLE 7, THE LAW THAT WAS
INTERPRETED HERE, THE WHOLE
POINT OF THIS CIVIL RIGHTS LAW
IS TO HELP US AS A COUNTRY LIVE
UP TO OUR PROMISE OF EQUALITY
FOR ALL OF OUR CITIZENS, FOR ALL
OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE, AND
I THINK THIS CASE, THIS RULING
GETS US CLOSER TO THAT GOAL.
>> Darren: SUSAN MURRAY, THANK
YOU SO MUCH.
STAY SAFE AND BE HEALTHY, OKAY?
>> Murray: SAME TO YOU.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DARREN.
TAKE CARE.
>> Darren: THAT WILL DO IT FOR
"YOU CAN QUOTE ME."
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
WE APPRECIATE IT.
HAVE A WONDERFUL SUNDAY AND I'LL
SEE YOU SOON.
TAKE CARE.
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